How do you know when your area is being overpopulated with bees

[Amari]

Actually I can only get one link to work properly, the Times article I can only see the first bit of and it appears to be quoting another article not scientific papers.. From what little I can see they are isolated studies that you seem to be extrapolating to suggest there IS a general problem with honeybee colonies affecting the other pollinator species. If anything is Trumpian then it is that premise that is flawed and is fake news being picked up by people who appear to have a vested interest in making waves....

Apols if all the links don't work. I typed them individually rather than cut and paste. This because I haven't mastered the art of posting multiple links! The Times article is based on a paper published from Kew Gardens.

Here is a cut and paste of part of my article:

The Times (30 Sept 2020) published an article ‘Honey trap as city hives leave wild bees at risk’ quoting a report from Kew Gardens which says that campaigns encouraging people to save bees have resulted in “an unsustainable proliferation of urban beekeeping” and this could do “more harm than good”. Recorded hives in London have more than doubled in a decade from 2,287 to 4,844.

And it’s not only London. The Brussels Times (14 Oct 2019) reported “Brussels wants to stop unfettered growth in beehives”.
The environmental agency plans to remove all the hives, previously encouraged, from nature sites it manages.
https://www.brusselstimes.com/bruss...iodiversity-hives-pollution-climate-apiarist/
Evidence
So, what is the evidence that honey bees, or an excess of them, can damage our ecosystem? Samantha kindly sent me the following references which I’ve attempted to summarise:
Proceedings of the Royal Society, 2016. ‘Experimental evidence that honeybees depress wild insect densities in a flowering crop’.

Honeybee and wild pollinator numbers in Sweden were compared in 23 fields of oilseed **** (OSR) hosting 624 beehives and 21 fields of OSR remote from beehives. Wild pollinators were significantly reduced in the fields with beehives..
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2016.1641

Nature, 2018. ‘Controlling the impact of managed honeybees on wild bees in protected areas’.
Sites with and without honeybees were compared in conservation areas rich in rosemary in Mediterranean scrubland in southern France. High density beekeeping reduced numbers of wild bees by 55% and these bees collected 50% less nectar and pollen than wild bees with no competition.

Of interest to all beekeepers: more nectar per hive was collected from sites with few beehives compared with sites with many hives.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-27591-y
Nature, 2019. ‘Honeybees disrupt the structure and functionality of plant-pollinator networks’.
A three-year study in Tenerife concluded ‘High-density beekeeping in natural areas appears to have a lasting, more serious, negative impact on biodiversity than was previously assumed’.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41271-5
PLOS ONE, 2019. ‘Wild pollinator activity is negatively related to honeybee colony densities in an urban context’.
The authors note that cities are perceived as shelters for pollinators because of low pesticide exposure and a high floral diversity. This has led to environmental policies promoting urban beehives which have thus increased markedly in recent years.
This Parisian study again confirms that increase in urban beehives is negatively correlated with the numbers of wild pollinators.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0222316

 

[North End Bees]

Uncertainty also fuels the debate among bee biologists "
I rest my case ....

To be fair, you've dismissed Amari's argument because the available evidence is inconclusive.
Yet you used the same lack of evidence to say conclusively that harm done is fake news.
Can't have it both ways.

 

[pargyle]

If you go back to what I said initially " The fake new that has been put out (mainly in the USA) that honey bees are detrimental to other pollinator species is just that - Fake News. It is unlikely that the hive density where you are is going to have any effect other than to improve the crops on fruit trees, soft fruit and allotment crops in the vicinity. " and you look at the myriad of doom and gloom articles in the internet that are specifically saying that there is an overpopulation of honey bees and that this is jeopardising the survival of other species then this is fake news.

I accept that in isolated studies (which appear to have been carried out principally in city environments) there is limited forage ...but I maintain that the premise that honeybees are generally detrimental to other pollinator survival is rubbish.

We are giving our polllinator species more problems by the way our ennvironment is changing, HAS changed, pollution, pesticides and mono-culture that dwarf the impact of foraging honey bees. In fact, the most endangered pollinator species on the whole are those whose habitat is exclusive and symbionic and that forage on plant species that honeybees find unattractive.

The evidence presented by Amari is admitted by the report writers as inconclusive and specific to particular locations ... you cannot extrapolate this up to a global issue and not expect to to be challenged.
I fear for our pollinators generally ... a world without their colour and diversity would be a tragedy - do I believe that honeybees are a harbinger of their demise - not at all - look elsewhere for the culprits and start studying what it really going on ...

 

[Hachi]

The bees will let you know when the area is over populated, swarming, reduced crop, temper, in my own case, when my hives go over a certain number, the swarming takes off, how do the bees know when the area is over crowded?
https://www.beeculture.com/a-closer-look-tarsal-glands-footprint-pheromone/

I'm struggling with the logic of what you're saying. According to BeeBase I have round 60 hives within a 6km circle, not including obviously, feral colony's. I have not experienced any of what you say ever! So how can you be so certain?

 

[drdrday]

I'm not sure I'd rely too much on the BeeBase apiary numbers. They don't tell you whether their numbers are just for current apiaries or include old abandoned sites, and of course the local environment around your apiary is likely to have a far greater effect on the productivity of your bees than the number of colonies you share it with.

Apparently I've got 241 apiaries within a 10km radius from me.

I would suggest that monitoring your yield over many years would be the only way of knowing for sure if there might be any effects due to overpopulation and even then it would be difficult to disprove other factors.

 

[Amari]

If you go back to what I said initially " The fake new that has been put out (mainly in the USA) that honey bees are detrimental to other pollinator species is just that - Fake News. It is unlikely that the hive density where you are is going to have any effect other than to improve the crops on fruit trees, soft fruit and allotment crops in the vicinity. " and you look at the myriad of doom and gloom articles in the internet that are specifically saying that there is an overpopulation of honey bees and that this is jeopardising the survival of other species then this is fake news.

I accept that in isolated studies (which appear to have been carried out principally in city environments) there is limited forage ...but I maintain that the premise that honeybees are generally detrimental to other pollinator survival is rubbish.

We are giving our polllinator species more problems by the way our ennvironment is changing, HAS changed, pollution, pesticides and mono-culture that dwarf the impact of foraging honey bees. In fact, the most endangered pollinator species on the whole are those whose habitat is exclusive and symbionic and that forage on plant species that honeybees find unattractive.

The evidence presented by Amari is admitted by the report writers as inconclusive and specific to particular locations ... you cannot extrapolate this up to a global issue and not expect to to be challenged.
I fear for our pollinators generally ... a world without their colour and diversity would be a tragedy - do I believe that honeybees are a harbinger of their demise - not at all - look elsewhere for the culprits and start studying what it really going on ...

Ah Philip, perhaps we'd both better accept that there's evidence for and against honeybees being a threat to biodiversity. It maybe in areas of high hive density but not as a generalisation. You and I are both alumni of schools** in the small Yorkshire town of Mexborough so it wouldn't be good to be too nerdy!
** infants age 4-7 in my case!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ah Philip, perhaps we'd both better accept that there's evidence for and against honeybees being a threat to biodiversity.

II can see no concrete 'evidence' whatsoever - just scaremongering from the usual sensation courting press combined with surmise and guesswork from the handwringing community.

 

[pargyle]

Ah Philip, perhaps we'd both better accept that there's evidence for and against honeybees being a threat to biodiversity. It maybe in areas of high hive density but not as a generalisation. You and I are both alumni of schools** in the small Yorkshire town of Mexborough so it wouldn't be good to be too nerdy!
** infants age 4-7 in my case!!

Sounds like a good compromise to me .... save the discord for the red rose lot ....

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

Some git of a so called beefarmer sneaked thirty odd hives adjacent to an apiary where I had kept ten colonies happily for nine years.
Killed the area immediately, which was always marginal. only thing I get now is lots of swarms collected in my bait boxes.
Always some benefit to someone else's greed.

 

[Finman]

You notice it when your honey crop is miserable.

I have one pasture may be too much area.
Somwtimes place gives 60 kg honey amd then if bees fo not fly, and other yards fly, itbis time to move that only hive.

Before landing hives to the new place, I look, how much I see other bees. Sometimes a bew place may have too much bumbble bees, 5 bees per square metre.

 

[Ash-Rhea]

"In the absence of clear evidence of the underlying ecological processes, and without specific guideline or legislation on this issue, protected land managers remain unaware of the potential threat high-density beekeeping poses to their nature conservation efforts. Uncertainty also fuels the debate among bee biologists "

I rest my case

So if there is any uncertainty by the scientists you are automatically correct then?

 

[pargyle]

So if there is any uncertainty by the scientists you are automatically correct then?

I didn't say that ,... read on...

 

[Erichalfbee]

So if there is any uncertainty by the scientists you are automatically correct then?

Somebody has to be right?
Or maybe nobody at all is ?

 

[Ash-Rhea]

If you go back to what I said initially " The fake new that has been put out (mainly in the USA) that honey bees are detrimental to other pollinator species is just that - Fake News. It is unlikely that the hive density where you are is going to have any effect other than to improve the crops on fruit trees, soft fruit and allotment crops in the vicinity. " and you look at the myriad of doom and gloom articles in the internet that are specifically saying that there is an overpopulation of honey bees and that this is jeopardising the survival of other species then this is fake news.

I accept that in isolated studies (which appear to have been carried out principally in city environments) there is limited forage ...but I maintain that the premise that honeybees are generally detrimental to other pollinator survival is rubbish.

We are giving our polllinator species more problems by the way our ennvironment is changing, HAS changed, pollution, pesticides and mono-culture that dwarf the impact of foraging honey bees. In fact, the most endangered pollinator species on the whole are those whose habitat is exclusive and symbionic and that forage on plant species that honeybees find unattractive.

The evidence presented by Amari is admitted by the report writers as inconclusive and specific to particular locations ... you cannot extrapolate this up to a global issue and not expect to to be challenged.
I fear for our pollinators generally ... a world without their colour and diversity would be a tragedy - do I believe that honeybees are a harbinger of their demise - not at all - look elsewhere for the culprits and start studying what it really going on ...

I agree with a lot of this but rubbishing all comments and research on the subject isn't helpful. I think the problem is that any answer isn't applicable in all instances. Yes modern agriculture (to a large extent) is a big problem for insects. General pollution perhaps too although that's not quite as bad as it was. Honey bees don't compete when there is a massive nectar source available - mainly trees, heather, himalayan balsam and flowering arable but in the lean months I don't see how they can avoid competing for what's there and that will vary depending on location and season.

 

[Amari]

I agree with a lot of this but rubbishing all comments and research on the subject isn't helpful. I think the problem is that any answer isn't applicable in all instances. Yes modern agriculture (to a large extent) is a big problem for insects. General pollution perhaps too although that's not quite as bad as it was. Honey bees don't compete when there is a massive nectar source available - mainly trees, heather, himalayan balsam and flowering arable but in the lean months I don't see how they can avoid competing for what's there and that will vary depending on location and season.

There is an article on this subject in April's Beecraft. Comes to much the same conclusion.

I should have pointed out in Post 15 & 21 that my article in our local BKA newsletter was titled 'Are we beekeepers damaging biodiversity?' I quoted articles I had come across but ended up by saying 'Of course, loss of habitat, pesticide use, air pollution etc, are probably more damaging to biodiversity than are beekeepers'.

 

[itsbruce]

He claimed that the UK required dog licenses to keep dogs and chicken licenses to keep chickens (Untrue) so why not bee licenses.

As a law-abiding citizen, I'm keen to cooperate but I worry how I'll go about getting my bees microchipped.

 

[madasafish]

As a law-abiding citizen, I'm keen to cooperate but I worry how I'll go about getting my bees microchipped.

Simples: get them to form an orderly socially distanced line...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As a law-abiding citizen, I'm keen to cooperate but I worry how I'll go about getting my bees microchipped.

You sneak it in when you give them their Covid ***

 

[Erichalfbee]

You sneak it in when you give them their Covid ***

For crying out loud I wondered why the cat flap flew open every time I walked past it.

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

For me its not just the amount of managed colonies that's the issue, its also the move to monoculturul farming practice.
The village where I grew up we were the only beekeepers, 32 colonies split 50/50 at home and an orchard out apiary. We regularly averaged over 200 lb @ colonie even before OSR showed up.
Now that same village evey other inhabitant has bees, the orchard is a housing estate and the farms are a green desert.
I tried a few colonies nr to the old places and once the **** had gone colonies went backwards pretty quick and the year was over, we even used to get a bit of Balsom but thats all been ripped out.
a *** packet analogy, but shows how times have changed & not for the better.