How big can a cast swarm be?

[Wingy]

Reason I ask is
On Saturday I collected a swarm into a 6 frame national Nuc. It was obvious at the time the Nuc wasn't big enough to house the swarm. Convinced I had the Q I set the entrance disc to QX and left it in the garden. Sunday morning it appeared many bees had spent the night clustered under or on the front.
I put them all into a brood box and left the entrance full open.
Fast forward 5 days and they have settled in. I inspected and found
The bees completely cover 8 frames, 6 of which have been fully drawn all from foundation, some nectar and a tiny amount of pollen in there. I haven’t fed the colony but due to the amount of drawn comb expected to see eggs but there wasn’t any. I found the Q and not sure if she is possibly a virgin Q or not, she appears slim.
Time frame from swarm arriving in the neighbours garden to now is 8 days.
Any thoughts? Cast or Prime swarm?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Could be a swarm from a hive where a clipped queen perished?

 

[beeno]

They have spent all their time on foraging and drawing and not fed the Q for laying or you have a virgin in there. Difficult to tell difference between slimmed down mated Q and a virgin therefore marking them comes in very handy. They are doing well - early days.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Could be a swarm from a hive where a clipped queen perished?

A prime swarm headed by a virgin

 

[Wingy]

Thanks, a prime swarm headed by a virgin Q, something I hadn’t thought about. If that’s the case I guess she better get a move on & get mated. I’ll have a look in a couple of days & update.

 

[beeno]

Wingy, Just had a thought, most research are not made on colonies of 60,000 population, but on bees kept in observation hives, so a secondary swarm may be larger than people think.

 

[Wingy]

Wingy, Just had a thought, most research are not made on colonies of 60,000 population, but on bees kept in observation hives, so a secondary swarm may be larger than people think.

Interesting, either way cast or prime somebody has lost a lot of bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

According to Tom Seeley somewhere between 60% and 75% of the bees go with the first swarm

 

[beeno]

According to Tom Seeley somewhere between 60% and 75% of the bees go with the first swarm

Yes, but correct me if I am wrong that was based on observation hives with a population of 8,000 not the real world and we do get very incy prime swarms too.
Hey, it is tough being a beekeeper!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, but correct me if I am wrong that was based on observation hives with a population of 8,000 not the real world and we do get very incy prime swarms too.
Hey, it is tough being a beekeeper!

How does a colony if 8000 bees swarm? I mean why really?
Unless they are forced to I guess. I must go look this up.

 

[beeno]

How does a colony if 8000 bees swarm? I mean why really?
Unless they are forced to I guess. I must go look this up.

Crowded I guess. It is common for observation hives to swarm. Handy for research I guess as you don't need to wait too long.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Crowded I guess. It is common for observation hives to swarm. Handy for research I guess as you don't need to wait too long.

Yes I just looked the paper up. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-swarm-fraction.pdf?origin=publication_detail

He had one swarm fraction at 82% and the smallest at 62 with most being in the
70s
You’re right about the size if prime swarms though. I caught one with a queen and fifty bees.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I recently picked up a swarm from one of my hives. I had taken away the queen the week before and left one (or so I thought) queen cell.
The swarm had a virgin in it and when I hived it occupied a double 8 frame poly nuc. The original hive was VERY depleated. I would guess that at least 70% of the bees left with the swarm. (Is this a prime swarm because it was the first to swarm or a cast because it has a virgin queen?)
Thankfully both queens are mated and laying.

 

[user 6228]

According to Tom Seeley somewhere between 60% and 75% of the bees go with the first swarm

And the error bars on that number ? Bees are so predictably variable

 

[Erichalfbee]

And the error bars on that number ? Bees are so predictably variable

Yes it’s just chit chat when you come down to it. Useful to know as most things are but when it comes down to bees you take what you get.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is this a prime swarm because it was the first to swarm or a cast because it has a virgin queen?

It's a prime swarm - from the Latin 'Primus' - meaning the first.

 

[Finman]

Yes, but correct me if I am wrong that was based on observation hives with a population of 8,000 not the real world and we do get very incy prime swarms too.
Hey, it is tough being a beekeeper!

To inform the size of colony as head number is not good, because the people cannot understand the numbers and hive size.

Ordinary workers weigh 0.12 g and a swarming bee full of honey weighs 0.17 g.

The weigh of swarm is easy to inform. 2 kg swarm uccupy one langstroth box. 40% out of swarm weigh is honey.

With these calculations 12 000 bees occupy one langstroth box.

 

[Finman]

How does a colony if 8000 bees swarm? I mean why really?
Unless they are forced to I guess. I must go look this up.

According my calculations 8000 bees occupy 2/3 langstroth box.

 

[Wingy]

An update on the swarm, if the Q was a virgin she isn’t any more. Checked in today and there are 2 frames of eggs both sides and there was the Q, looking much bigger now as she was starting to lay up the 3rd frame. I guess I will never know if it was a prime swarm with a mated Q who was so slimmed down and took time to start laying due to only having foundation to start with and workers bringing in stores, nectar & pollen as they drew out some comb... or if it was a prime swarm with a virgin Q who is now mated and laying well. One thing I’m sure about is it must have been a prime swarm as there are so many bees.
I haven’t needed to feed as they are working well and a bonus is they are lovely calm and placid bees