Honey harvests last few years

[dpearce4]

Average!! You have all heard of lies damn lies.....

I am willing to bet that over 99% of beekeepers have more than the national average of arms! (and as a separate bet more than the global average)

 

[QueenMaster]

National average includes nucs and year swarm that are not productive.

"True" average does not include nucs nor year's swarm.

 

[Into the lions den]

National average includes nucs and year swarm that are not productive.

"True" average does not include nucs nor year's swarm.

True average is a highly subjective thing. On our spreadsheets we have three average columns (which are on a per site and overall basis, also extracts details of hive type and general geographical area for comparisons), and as far as we are concerned the first one is the crucial one that gives the best reflection of what you get back against what you put in. That column is all the hives moved to the heather, and we move all colonies except one group of late nucs every year (we call it the 'peak count' average as it is the true reflection of the work done and costs incurred that season). It also gives the middle figure of the three. In our concern it would for sure include all current year swarms, and all nucs too if they were promoted to full hives and sent to the heather.

Second column is based on spring count, and appears to be the one most commonly used by beekeepers, probably because it is the most satisfying or politically suitable, and can be as high as 40% above the 'peak count' average if you have made a lot of splits. Its rather an illusion as it takes no account of the work done on colonies that eventually died. (In the accounts the winter feed etc is down as a 'work in progress' asset, as we condsider our beekeeping year ends at the moment the hives arelaid down for winter and the feed for winter is a cost against NEXT season as its intent is to prepare, or even just conserve, them for that.)

The third column is the one that gives the real average against capital invested, when you count ALL the hives you have bought and own, even if empty, as you still have the capital tied up. Most times column 1 and 3 SHOULD be quite close to eachother.

Column 3 has a further one alongside it that says what we WOULD have had if all the hives had been full and the average was the same. This give us our percentage efficiency of the use of the outfit. It is quite simple to just say you had say 9% of the hives lying empty and thus efficiency of use of gear is 91%, but it is far more motivational to se that translated into tonnage and value of honey..................9% of 50 tonnes of heather is 4.5 tonnes....or £29.7K.........much more likely to hit home.

Column 2, the spring count averages, is only there so we know what the comparison is when talking to other beekeepers in the area who we know use that system. Always good to know if you are ahead of the game or need to sharpen up your act. Then there are the habitual exaggerators, and those who never declare their average till everyone else has.......................and its usually higher. You can test THEM out by offering to buy this big crop they have, usually followed by hearing a catalogue of reasons why they will not sell it.

 

[PBee]

Average!! You have all heard of lies damn lies.....

I am willing to bet that over 99% of beekeepers have more than the national average of arms! (and as a separate bet more than the global average)

Arms race?

National average includes nucs and year swarm that are not productive.

"True" average does not include nucs nor year's swarm.

Unless there is a standard definition comparing average values is a bit meaningless. The best indicators come from the commercial guys like ITLD that have long data sets and a standard method of calculation. What crop did you get the 500lb from 50% of your hives this year and were the rest all swarms of the year. Might consider moving over.

 

[mbc]

Average!! You have all heard of lies damn lies.....

I am willing to bet that over 99% of beekeepers have more than the national average of arms! (and as a separate bet more than the global average)

I know a very competent one armed beekeeper, manages several colonies very well and you'd hardly notice he has a prosthetic arm watching him work amongst his bees.

 

[mbc]

Column 2, the spring count averages, is only there so we know what the comparison is when talking to other beekeepers in the area who we know use that system. Always good to know if you are ahead of the game or need to sharpen up your act. Then there are the habitual exaggerators, and those who never declare their average till everyone else has.......................and its usually higher. You can test THEM out by offering to buy this big crop they have, usually followed by hearing a catalogue of reasons why they will not sell it.

Lol. yes its the old story of "in a room full of beekeepers discussing honey crops, the first lier has no chance !"
I have to admit, I didnt put up my figures as it would have been totally unrealistic in my locality to gazump ChrisB's figures.
I think its interesting the way you (ITLD) count your first column, the worst seasons average wise would be those following heavy losses over winter, not often the case if taking the average from the number of surviving colonies in the spring as nature has a wonderful way of bouncing back, hard winters and late springs often preceding good summer flows.

 

[Drew]

I know a very competent one armed beekeeper, manages several colonies very well and you'd hardly notice he has a prosthetic arm watching him work amongst his bees.

You will note that I only bet over 99% of beekeepers not ALL ;-)

 

[mbc]

You will note that I only bet over 99% of beekeepers not ALL ;-)

But from my perspective I'm not sure that I know 100 beekeepers.

 

[Drew]

But from my perspective I'm not sure that I know 100 beekeepers.

Very possibly.... but I expect you acknowledge that there are more than 100?

If you don't know or know of more than 100 I would be equally happy betting that on average ALL of the beekeepers you know have considerably less than the average number of arms for a beekeeper.

ie You have to be very careful in interpreting what is actually being said particularly when statistics/averages are being used.

Most of the beekeepers you know have more than average - True
On average all (of the ones you know) have less than average - True
(Your average is considerably lower than the beekeeping population as a whole - but an average compared to an average is always suspicious)

 

[Into the lions den]

I think its interesting the way you (ITLD) count your first column, the worst seasons average wise would be those following heavy losses over winter, not often the case if taking the average from the number of surviving colonies in the spring as nature has a wonderful way of bouncing back, hard winters and late springs often preceding good summer flows.

Funnily enough it only loosely correlates. Summer weather is much more to the point. In a good season recovery from splitting is rapid and vibrant. Conventional thought says splitting hives to make up losses impacts harvest, and if you only look at the parent hive and discount the split(s) then you have a point, but a cortrectly timed split parent can be peaking again at just the right time and can do better than an unsplit parent suffering instability, and you have the harvest from the split to add in too if you wish to count it that way. The distinction between crop size and colony average is brought into focus here, where you can have a bigger crop but a lower average. At the end of the day its crop rather than average that pays the bills, but in itself that not a useful measure as you need to know about performance, potential, and shortfall as well.

However, the point you make is indeed partially valid, but we still count the dead outs in our column 3, as you spent money on feeding them and treating them for varroa, picked them up, moved them around, and apart from examination labour costs there is not much else they did not get. Their costs are counted and thus their returns need taking into account too, even if its zero.

Many beeks do not count any non performing or low performing colony in their averages, and to me thats just self deceiving nonsense.

You can also look at time and money expended per colony. You can spend endless time doing everything just perfectly (to your own eyes anyway) and get a great percolony average, but at what cost? I would sooner do a rapid system that was efficient rather than perfect and get a lower average per hive, but a bigger one per pound invested and hour expended. Its all very subjective indeed and there is often little to learn other than in the most general of terms from comparing relative averages between beekeepers. The variables that make it useless are many, simplest first question, often answered dishonestly, is 'How much have you fed the bees this year?'

Thats one hides a load of differentials. We give one full pre winter feed, c 14Kg, per colony, and *if needed* another 7Kg or so in spring. Another 7Kg in late June is under consideration due to the current pattern of the bees having a 'stop' at that time. Some who I have talked to are straight enough to admit to an annual feed level of as high as 80Kg, and 60Kg is not terribly unusual (seriously!!) in some areas (being careful not to point fingers here). These same beekeepers are then sometimes a bit disparaging about the poor averages of other beekeepers.

 

[QueenMaster]

To get 500lb, I got this year :
rapeseed (fields nearby)
pseudorobinia (couple of it)
castanea sativa (couple of it)
ivy (neighbours have hedges of very old ivy, this year was very good for ivy compared to last years)

Despite weather condition, I made a good year compare to colleagues.

100lb hives are just less performing, less brood and less productive but I keep them because they are resistant to varroa and starvation. I need diversity, I can't only keep top hive, the fact that I don't treat them against varroa and don't feed them for wintering is enough to keep them. There is also the Ant problem, some hives have to "fight" against ants.

Sometime they do a very good next year as a 500lb hive, it's a question of timing and positioning. In a Apiary good spots are limited, often the spot with the queen determines if it will be a 500lb hive or not.

 

[Into the lions den]

Sometime they do a very good next year as a 500lb hive, it's a question of timing and positioning. In a Apiary good spots are limited, often the spot with the queen determines if it will be a 500lb hive or not.

500lb per hive is to us merely a dream. If I said such a thing in public in Scotland I would be hauled off and test for substance abuse!

It is actually quite extraordinary. 25 BS supers. Yes I know you are in France and on Dadants and have a far longer season but even then, its a truly VAST amount of honey from one hive. It exceeds the UK record from one colony by a wide margin.

(Although some stunts like putting two strong colonies alongside your trial colony for a week, then moving them 100 metres away, and constantly repeating the process, can contrive some very big crops. To me utterly pointless and is only about bragging rights.)

 

[mbc]

500lb per hive is to us merely a dream.

From what I hear its beyond the dreams of most French beekeepers too, perhaps only obtainable by masters in the craft.

 

[Into the lions den]

From what I hear its beyond the dreams of most French beekeepers too, perhaps only obtainable by masters in the craft.

I have many friends in France and such harvests are commonplace. 800, 900lb, happen quite often, but in Hungary you can get 1500lb................

OK, now I chop the first 6 feet off my ever extending nose and vow never to drink Polish vodka again....................

My French friends ACTUALLY get harvests not ridiculously removed from those we get here, especially in the south of England. Crop often severely curtailed by lack of water. Original mentioner of 500lb colonies better not give away location or they will find themselves with a lot of 'friends' moving into the area.

 

[QueenMaster]

I make apiaries with less than 25 colonies, I guess that you can't do that with 2000 colonies.

Having 500lb is not surealistic :
rapeseed + robinia + castanea + limewood + ivy + orchard of cherry and plum = lots of honey and pollen depending on weather : 12 super of 20kg

Next year I will plant some phacelia, and I have seeds of tetradium I will try to make seedlings. I have planted medicago sativa but I didn't see bees on it.

Every year I'm trying new forage plants but my bees have better meal in the area.

 

[richardbees]

Queen Master

Don't know how to say this without causing offence - but are you absolutely confident that you are converting kg to lbs correctly?

Maybe this is why we find your yields unbelievable

richard

 

[QueenMaster]

500lbs is 226.8kg
And I'm doing a bit more than 226.8kg, 12 super is around 240kg (so 530lbs)

 

[oliver90owner]

I am willing to bet that over 99% of beekeepers have more than the national average of arms!

Sooo, is this to be interpreted as fewer than 1% of beekeepers have less than the normal complement of two and they would be omitted from the calculation; or is it meaning that there are fewer one-armed beekeepers as a percentage of total beekeepers compared with the figure for the population as a whole.

Either way the poster would win. Of course, that is taking the maths to a level where number averages are quoted to a greater degree of resolution than is really possible - as in the average of 1 and 2 is 2 (the average of 1.0 and 2.0 is 1.5), and the average of 1 and 2 (quoted to one decimal place) could be anywhere between o.6 and 1.4, so suggesting it is 1.5 is clearly wrong. This is assuming the more popular convention of rounding values of 0.5 or greater upwards. There is one reason why statistics are often lies.

I wish I could get 5 tonnes of honey from 24 colonies!

 

[Hivemaker.]

I wish I could get 5 tonnes of honey from 24 colonies!

I would hope for a little more than that if some of the top performers were involved..

 

[QueenMaster]

Sure you can do 5T with 24 productive hives.

I know a colleague doing 12T with 50 productive hives,
he use the same hives.

First you have to manage swarming and have a lots of spare parts! keep on adding supers !! I'm spending all spring and mid summer adding supers.