hive type

[andrew bee]

I am not sure which hive to keep national, wbc,poly or langstroth any help would be great

 

[madasafish]

You need to separate in your mind:
Hive type- langstroth, national,commercial, Smiths,TBH,warre etc.
Hive material: poly or wood or even plastic.

Hive type depends on whole variety of issues: but basically most people in the UK use nationals so if you want interchangeability (eg frames) that is best. But National brood boxes are usually not big enough so you may need 1,1.5 or 2.. And more than one means lifting of heavy weights every time you inspect.. and 1.5 means two frame sizes...

And non nationals mean many extractors are unsuitable....

As for materials, poly is best for winter - unless you insulate wooden hives.

You really need to read - a lot..

 

[taurus]

From one newbie to another - join a local association, do their training, find a mentor and the answer will reveal itself.

In theory the most common hive type in use - ie the National - isn't ideal. But since that's what most people use it is what I have gone for. It is what our training apiary use and it is what my mentor uses.

In practice what this means is that yesterday I got my first colony, from my mentor, a double brood delivered in two of his poly national brood boxes. At the moment they are on my national stand, with my national super on top, and my national roof.

Next week we'll transfer the frames into my national brood boxes. So it's all interchangeable.

It currently looks a bit odd because his are poly and mine are wood - but everything fits together.

If you use what most people round you use you'll find it much easier. So the question is really best asked locally.

I was amazed to see bees bringing in pollen within 10 minutes of opening a hive that had just been driven 40 miles and then placed on a totally new site. Bees are amazing.

Good luck.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am not sure which hive to keep national, wbc,poly or langstroth any help would be great

Down your neck of the woods National is by far the most popular (over 90% of Welsh beekeepers are on national) also it seems the strain of bee prevalent in the shire (apart from some using imported stock) are happy enough in national deep boxes. Material is up to your preference.
WBC is the devil's work

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I am not sure which hive to keep national, wbc,poly or langstroth any help would be great

A biased answer because it's what I use - a 14 x 12 brood box in plywood but with 1" thick kingspan hive cozy's for winter and the cooler ends of the season. The box footprint matches standard national supers also in plywood which means easy access to extraction facilities.
I also heartily recommend clear crownboards especially for beginners as the temptation to disturb your colony by rummaging about inside is massively reduced.
If you haven't already been advised here's a few more recommendations
1 open mesh floor (OMF)
2 inspection slide under OMF should only be in place while monitoring varroa drop
3 crownboards should not have open holes which allow heat to escape from the colony, nor should they be raised above the box by matchsticks or any other spacers under the rim
4 bees dont need full width entrance gaps across the front of the hive. Reduced apertures allow the guard bees to defend the entrance.
5 start off with 6" roof depth which can accommodate a rapid feeder rather than shallow roofs which can't.

Hope this helps.

Note a standard brood frame such as dn4 will fit into a 14 x 12 box just fine. The bees may hang comb off the bottom in the gap but you can work this out over a few brood cycles. This allows you to use donor brood etc from standard national hives. I confess to using standard brood in my bait hive so I can have the option of passing on unwanted incoming swarms.

 

[taurus]

What is said above reminds me of what I am learning from observing experienced beekeepers - that what is said in theory in the books isn't always what experienced beekeepers do.

The fun bit is discerning which you follow!

 

[Everbeezer]

First of all welcome to the forum. This is the place to be for info an advice. As a new beekeeper myself I would agree with most of the advice given so far and go with National hives. I myself have purchased a poly one and have built a few National nucs using scrap wood I had. I joined my local beekeepers association and have found the info and advice I have received so far to be well worth it.

 

[Itchy]

Go for poly, bees like good insulation ALL YEAR.....as I found out after bulk buying wood nationals.

 

[Madge]

... the National - isn't ideal. ...

For some people a National isn't 'ideal' - but for others it is. I sold my Langstroths in favour of Nationals. I think it's a much more convenient size for me and for the bees. It is a nice bree-friendly space - particularly for overwintering. If I think the bees need more space, I double up and reduce the sides with dummies (if necessary). Read Ian Craig's My Beekeeping Year for managing Nationals.

 

[mjt68]

Can of worms or what! Get some experience with nationals and langs and see how you feel then. Nationals often have to use brood and a half/double brood so bees on more frames (unless 14x12, no brainer to me). I don't like long lugs (waste of space which could be bees) and 'plastic metal ends' etc. turned me right off. National shallows seem weeny to me, great if want to boast about how many boxes you took but I'd think quite annoying as more extraction needed for the same honey. Nationals are also square which allows all sorts of tedious arguments about warm way or cold way.

There's also the issue of top or bottom beespace, but this can be changed.

Langs can often be cheaper too as more internationally favoured. However, the cosequence of having bees on fewer frames and fewer boxes is that everything is more heavy and without as good handles. Bigger supers means they might not get filled on an iffy flow or osr.

Edit to add: there's no bad choice, both are fine and will allow you to keep bees well and get honey.

 

[freak4speed]

Top bar??

I've currently got two nationals. My latest one I've just done a walk away split, so hoping it works. I'm really keen to get a top bar hive and did some research into them and came across a cathedral hive which I'm now favouring aa the combs they produce seem much more stable when handling them. Also the top bars inside have holes drilled along the top edge which allows the bee's to move between combs easier and quicker. Just trying to find a carpenter to make me one. I'd like to know your opinions. Thanks

 

[Queen Brenda]

I've just changed from National deeps to 14x12 and it has revolutionised inspections. They're in the garden so not much lifting around (they are heavy, fully laden) as previously we were on brood + 1/2 so going through all the frames just took ages. Now 11 frames per box to pull out instead of 22.

 

[mintmoth]

I've currently got two nationals. My latest one I've just done a walk away split, so hoping it works. I'm really keen to get a top bar hive and did some research into them and came across a cathedral hive which I'm now favouring aa the combs they produce seem much more stable when handling them. Also the top bars inside have holes drilled along the top edge which allows the bee's to move between combs easier and quicker. Just trying to find a carpenter to make me one. I'd like to know your opinions. Thanks

Cathedral hives seem unnecessarily complicated to me. If you want a long hive with more stable combs, then why not a Dartington?

 

[BernardBlack]

Aarghhh!! Too much information to take in lol.

I'm still undecided.

 

[Nige.Coll]

What bees are you getting?
The hive needs to suit the bees not you.

 

[BernardBlack]

What bees are you getting?
The hive needs to suit the bees not you.

That's a question I haven't been asked yet. I didn't realise that was the case. Can you elaborate?

 

[Madge]

What bees are you getting?
The hive needs to suit the bees not you.

... I didn't realise that was the case. Can you elaborate?

You can't put a full colony in a nucleus, nor a nucleus colony in a full-size brood box. Other than that, bees need a box and it's up to you to manage them. A long hive with a follower board is, I think, very accommodating for any size of colony.

 

[Nige.Coll]

That's a question I haven't been asked yet. I didn't realise that was the case. Can you elaborate?

Some of the more prolific bees need a larger area for their brood. The national box was designed for bees that traditionally maintained 8 ish frames of brood leaving the other frames for stores and pollen etc.
The more prolific bees could fill the entire national box with brood and then become swarmy through congestion. Easily fixed with a double brood but easily avoided by a bigger box reducing the faf and kit you have to buy.
Also some strains need more winter stores than a national will hold.

Poly hives seem to be well worth the money from the ones I have had dealings with and are cheaper than cedar ones.

Talk to the person supplying your bees i'm sure they will answer your questions.

Mine seem fine on nationals but given the space will make 15 frames of brood and become very large colonies indeed, I also overwinter on brood and a half.
If I was starting from scratch I would probably go for a slightly bigger box but I've gone too far for that now and I don't like 14x12 ( too heavy to move around ) so converting my wooden boxes is out.

 

[domino]

For some people a National isn't 'ideal' - but for others it is. I sold my Langstroths in favour of Nationals. I think it's a much more convenient size for me and for the bees. It is a nice bree-friendly space - particularly for overwintering. If I think the bees need more space, I double up and reduce the sides with dummies (if necessary). Read Ian Craig's My Beekeeping Year for managing Nationals.

This year I reverted back to nationals from running 12x14s for a number of reasons:

1. I find the frames easier to handle.
2. I like the ability to expande the broad nest in national sized chunks; I've currently got a hive on triple broad and I think if I had to manage that on double 12x14s I'd find it a chore.
3. The extra flexibility of having more frames for making nucs etc is handy
4. I find national sized nucs seem to work better
5. I'm now on foundationless frames and I think the national sized frames suit that method better.

The downsides are you need more boxes and therefore to inspect more boxes. For me this isn't much of a downside.

horses for courses and all that.

 

[BeeJayBee]

If you start off with standard Nationals you're likely to be looking for bigger brood boxes in a year or so's time unless you're confident enough to run double brood (two brood boxes), so it may be best to choose a larger box from the outset - either Commercial or Langstroth.

If I was starting from scratch I would probably go for a slightly bigger box but I've gone too far for that now and I don't like 14x12 ( too heavy to move around ) so converting my wooden boxes is out.

You can use Hamilton Converters to convert standard National to Commercial.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hamilton.html