Helping a feeble hive along

[Nirakaro]

Ok, bear with me on this, because I'm pretty clueless:

Last spring, I ordered a package of bees (not the best way to get bees I know, but funds were limited), and put together a top bar hive (I may be an incompetent beekeeper, but I'm an ace woodworker). The bees came at the end of June, and settled in well – they'd drawn five or six frames of comb after a week or two.

After that, thing went slowly downhill. There was brood on the combs, they were bringing in nectar, but each time I looked in the hive, there seemed to be slightly fewer bees, and they never seemed to have more than a kilo or two of honey. I fed them syrup inside the hive (which seemed to attract huge numbers of wasps), but the last time I opened the hive – late October – there was still very little honey, and to my eye a tiny colony on only two or three combs, which I thought unlikely to make it through the winter. I made sure they had easy access to a block of fondant, helped them along with a couple of inches of kingspan to the top, sides and ends, and hoped for the best, without much optimism.

Yesterday, first day that seemed warm enough, I pried up a few bars expecting, really, to be conducting an autopsy, and to my superlative surprise, out came a few bees! There was even one having a fly around.

So my question – I assume that having got this far, they'll make it to the spring. I want to mollycoddle them and help them get off to a good start, so how do I do this? Should I, for example, give them a 1:1 syrup quite early, and then be ready to feed them if it's a rotten spring? What's the general advice?

 

[Ian123]

First off did do any varroa treatments the fact they failed to take off would get me wondering. Have you tried to estimate levels of food in the hive. No point feeding if they don’t need it, although it’ll do no harm. I would have a poke in as early as possible in decent weather to at least assess what you have.

 

[Boston Bees]

Ok, bear with me on this, because I'm pretty clueless:

Last spring, I ordered a package of bees (not the best way to get bees I know, but funds were limited), and put together a top bar hive (I may be an incompetent beekeeper, but I'm an ace woodworker). The bees came at the end of June, and settled in well – they'd drawn five or six frames of comb after a week or two.

After that, thing went slowly downhill. There was brood on the combs, they were bringing in nectar, but each time I looked in the hive, there seemed to be slightly fewer bees, and they never seemed to have more than a kilo or two of honey. I fed them syrup inside the hive (which seemed to attract huge numbers of wasps), but the last time I opened the hive – late October – there was still very little honey, and to my eye a tiny colony on only two or three combs, which I thought unlikely to make it through the winter. I made sure they had easy access to a block of fondant, helped them along with a couple of inches of kingspan to the top, sides and ends, and hoped for the best, without much optimism.

Yesterday, first day that seemed warm enough, I pried up a few bars expecting, really, to be conducting an autopsy, and to my superlative surprise, out came a few bees! There was even one having a fly around.

So my question – I assume that having got this far, they'll make it to the spring. I want to mollycoddle them and help them get off to a good start, so how do I do this? Should I, for example, give them a 1:1 syrup quite early, and then be ready to feed them if it's a rotten spring? What's the general advice?

Keep the fondant on and make sure it is above the cluster (however you do this in a TBH), as this is the most dangerous point of the year in many ways. Their food consumption will rise as they get more active (assuming they still have a queen) so the danger of running out of food rises too.

Once you get into April, if they are still there, have a look at the frames and see where you are. At that point you can boost with syrup etc if needed.

Did you treat for varroa last year?

Good luck!

 

[madasafish]

Fondant pressed into an empty comb placed beside the bees.
Far too cold still for syrup.

( I assume you have a frame feeder for syrup?)

 

[hemo]

I wouldn't be fiddling to much, they are alive at present. Make sure they have food which means fondant, they have insulation so l leave them to it. If not building up take s sample of 30 bees and test for nosema in springtime.

 

[Wilco]

I've had similar with colonies failing to 'take off'. As with Ian, I would consider infectious disease of some form, particularly varroa, to be a possible cause; what treatments have you used?

 

[Antipodes]

Check them for signs of EFB in spring.

 

[Swarm]

Could well be Nosema C, bees fail to build and just tick along getting nowhere.

 

[oliver90owner]

Whatever the reason might be, they will not prosper in the spring unless there are sufficient bees to service the larvae and keep them warm. An inside food store. Minimal space (initially) and very good insulation are paramount until the weather gets much warmer or they get stronger. If you don’t they will just dwindle further ... as the old bees die off.

Mini-nucs get by in the summer months, but their bees are typically young nurse bees when made up.

 

[rolande]

Word of warning about feeding syrup to a very weak colony in April, you can kill them with kindness by over working them at a time when they're going to be at their weakest.

 

[ericbeaumont]

expecting, really, to be conducting an autopsy, and to my superlative surprise, out came a few bees! There was even one having a fly around.

Time to open up and find out whether there's a laying queen. It's going to be 13C in Leeds today and warm next week.

The bees that came out may be robbers; if so, seal the hive and post photos of the brood combs.

If the queen is laying even a small patch, you're in business provided stores are next to them, insulation has reduced the nest space and nosema hasn't taken over. You've done the first two; a simple microscope test will determine the third. If you're a member of your local BKA, ask for help to test. If not, time to join.

There was brood on the combs, they were bringing in nectar, but each time I looked in the hive, there seemed to be slightly fewer bees, and they never seemed to have more than a kilo or two of honey.

More info. needed before you can conclude that all was well. How much brood on how many combs and in what pattern?

There were two heat waves and a drought last year which will have switched off nectar and in turn, slowed or stopped the queen laying and so reduced the nest. Did you feed them during the nectar dearth?

 

[Ian123]

Word of warning about feeding syrup to a very weak colony in April, you can kill them with kindness by over working them at a time when they're going to be at their weakest.

Really come on.......if there’s so few bees that processing a bit of syrup will do them in I rather suspect they are gonners anyway

 

[rolande]

Really come on.......if there’s so few bees that processing a bit of syrup will do them in I rather suspect they are gonners anyway

Not necessarily

 

[Ian123]

Not necessarily

Ok let’s have some examples of colonies being killed by feeding.

 

[rolande]

Not killed by feeding, I never said that.

What can cause the trouble in April is the unnecessary overworking of an enfeebled unit which at that time of year *will* have a preponderance of old winter bees ready to die at the first opportunity.

When we first started overwintering lots of mini-plus sized colonies, both shop bought polys and homemade versions in OSB3 we experienced this very thing and ruined what I genuinely believe, based on plenty of subsequent experience, could have turned into good units if instead of being pushed too soon they'd been given the chance to get a larger number of young bees reared during May. Of course, I can't *prove* this but am happy to stand by what I write based on the success gained in similar situations during more recent years. Fondant or much better still (a luxury which the op doesn't have this year) combs of sealed stores have consistently given us better results in these early problem units.

I'll concede that there's a fine balance when it comes to the judgement call which indeed is why I didn't directly quote the post that prompted me to comment because Boston Bees had actually said much the same thing so I had no direct arguement with that. But that doesn't stop me from adding my thoughts for the op to sift through with all the other stuff which gets thrown around on here.

 

[Nirakaro]

Well, I fed them through the spring, and they survived but didn't thrive - only tiny amounts of capped brood. I figured that since they started to fade at around the time the original package bees would be dying off, maybe the queen was at fault. I put a new queen in at the back end of June, and now there's plenty of capped brood on three or four combs, all looking good. Not much honey yet, and I'm wondering if there's still enough time for them to stock up for the winter, or will I be feeding them again?

 

[pargyle]

With the flow that has been on in the last couple of weeks they should be piling the nectar in... have you ever checked them for varroa levels ?

However, if you put a new queen in there at the end of June (specific dates are always useful in beekeeping) then the first week of eggs she laid will now be emerged and the colony size should grow exponentially. The effects of increased colony size may not be felt for another week or two ... once the colony grows there will be more foragers and as long as there is forage in your location they will start to store honey. Whether they store enough .... well, you will have to wait and see. They should have plenty of time to pack a Top Bar Hive with honey before winter... how many drawn combs are there in the hive ? Whether they will have enough stores to see them through - that's always a judgement call - you can top them up with Invertbee fed to them as late as October if needs be. I find it better to feed them up prior to winter and keep an eye on how the stores are being consumed rather than the present fad of slapping a load of fondant on the hive in an endeavour to feed them constantly through the winter.

As an aside - You did remove the old queen before you introduced the new one ?

 

[ericbeaumont]

they survived but didn't thrive

Nirakaro, can you give a timeline for your varroa treatments?