Have you used Agreb plastic frames (from MB)?

[Bescherman]

Apologies if this has been covered in depth already. The search function is broken (is it just me?) and I manually searched the first 10 pages of this area of the forum with no joy.

I'm very new to the hobby and don't have my own bees yet. In the mean time I'm researching what gear I would like to use. I'm very interested in the plastic frames, specifically the 3/4 Lanstroth (or Langstroth Medium Plastic Frame) as seen HERE and sold by MB HERE.

I know that this can be an emotive topic so I'd really like feedback from anyone who has actually used this brand of frame. I'm not interested in a debate on plastic vs wax foundation (or no foundation!), just first hand experience of using them.

I know that there are competitors out there and have read very patchy reviews of one of the pre-coated alternatives.

If you've used the Agreb (preferably medium) frames, how did you find them?
Specifically:

• Did you coat as per the video on MB?
• Did you use use solely plastic or mix with wax?
• Did you use in both brood and supers
• Did the bees draw the comb well?
• Did you experience any warping of the plastic? (I know this can be a problem with the deeper frames)
• Any issues with undue propolis or brace comb?
• Any issues with spacing or handling?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

ChrisB uses plastic frames - he'll be along shortly to give you the gen.
If I remember correctly you just melt some wax and add a thin coat to the plastic foundation with a small paint roller.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I know somebody who uses plastic frames in Langs from Southdown Bee Farm, not sure if they're the same make. They coated them with wax and haven't had any problems.

 

[Bescherman]

ChrisB uses plastic frames - he'll be along shortly to give you the gen.
If I remember correctly you just melt some wax and add a thin coat to the plastic foundation with a small paint roller.

Thanks. I've seen the video instructions for coating the frames. I just wanted to be sure that anyone replying had done that, or if not then what they had done differently. It looks very straightforward and MB advised me that about 10 sheets of foundation would coat 40 medium plastic frames.

 

[Bescherman]

I know somebody who uses plastic frames in Langs from Southdown Bee Farm, not sure if they're the same make. They coated them with wax and haven't had any problems.

Sounds fairly promising. The general trend seems to be that the pre-coated ones (duragilt?) had very poor success rates. I've not seen enough info on user-coated ones to make a judgement.

 

[johnandyrob]

I have some from mb the ones I bough are made by Anel standard a Greek company I think. I havent used them yet though

 

[Bescherman]

I have some from mb the ones I bough are made by Anel standard a Greek company I think. I havent used them yet though

Ahh, ok, perhaps they've had more than one brand in then. This might confuse the issue. I'd be intereted to hear of any other brands people have got on well with (especially in 3/4 Langstroth)

 

[AmyB]

I use plastic frames from MB and wood/wax but will not be replacing any wood/wax when they go now.
Good points are seeing eggs! so easy on the black plastic.
I find them easier to handle than wood and wax.
No wiring of frames and quick to wax up when you get the hang of it and into a rhythm.
Cost. Not having to keep replacing.

I found some did warp but I found this was down to me taking a long time to wax one side so the heat bent it. I cured this by speeding up, using a paint roller, quickly covering one side of frame, flipping it over, covering that side and then putting it straight into a box to hang while it cooled.
Mine are a couple of years old and I understand the newer ones are less likely to warp now.

I would say if the bees were given one wax and one plastic frame they would draw the wax one out first as they do seem to prefer them if given the choice but as many of mine are on all plastic they don't have a choice.

Any particular questions just ask.

 

[Bescherman]

I use plastic frames from MB and wood/wax but will not be replacing any wood/wax when they go now.
Good points are seeing eggs! so easy on the black plastic.
I find them easier to handle than wood and wax.
No wiring of frames and quick to wax up when you get the hang of it and into a rhythm.
Cost. Not having to keep replacing.

I found some did warp but I found this was down to me taking a long time to wax one side so the heat bent it. I cured this by speeding up, using a paint roller, quickly covering one side of frame, flipping it over, covering that side and then putting it straight into a box to hang while it cooled.
Mine are a couple of years old and I understand the newer ones are less likely to warp now.

I would say if the bees were given one wax and one plastic frame they would draw the wax one out first as they do seem to prefer them if given the choice but as many of mine are on all plastic they don't have a choice.

Any particular questions just ask.

Thanks. That's really helpful. I'm thinking about the all medium lang poly hive from MB and am weighing up all plastic frames. It's good to hear some of the cited advantages being confirmed by a user.

Any issue with weird brace comb?
Have you had to clean the wax off any of the frames yet or are you still using the comb they originally drew?

 

[AmyB]

No more than the usual amount of brace comb compared to wood/wax.
I am mostly using the same drawn comb, the few frames that needed cleaning up I just scrapped the comb off and gave the frame straight back as it still had a good covering of wax.

What is your reasoning for wanting mediums? Mine are on deeps and I find most of my queens lay up two boxes happily and I don't find the bigger frame difficult to handle.

 

[Mike a]

IMHO I wouldn't recommend them at all.

No disrespect to the supplier where I bought them but the batch I bought were warped and twisted in every direction, made even worse when coated in melted wax. Due to the fact they were warped the bees colony didn't make a good job of drawing them out, in places the colony made brace comb 90' to the frames to fill the over sized gaps between the frames.

I then stumbled across sheets of waxed foundation on the thr0rns website which fitted nicely into wooden frames. Sadly though they have stop importing them from Dadant due to the fact they are precoated with a film of wax or I would of recommended you bought the sheets instead. See http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=205515&postcount=18

 

[Chris B]

I'm using the Anel brand of medium frame but it looks identical moulding to the link you've given.

The medium frame works very well. I melt the wax and use a spongy paint roller. You don't need to coat it thickly so it is economical on wax. The real benefit is time, about 100 frames an hour easily by which time the wax is running out and I need to melt another batch.
I've also tried the deep frames in brood boxes but they don't work nearly as well due to any slight warping causing bees to totally ignore some patches.
There is also an American brand called Pierco and I've yet to try that for brood, so perhaps that's better.
Other advantages - no blowouts in the extractor, and scraping of crystallized honey is fairly easy to do without wrecking the frame. Bees seem to like them - probably because you're giving them pure beeswax not a blend as in foundation. But I can't say for sure whether they prefer them or not. I may have mixed them with wood but mostly a new box will go on as plastic frames only.

 

[Bescherman]

I'm using the Anel brand of medium frame but it looks identical moulding to the link you've given.

The medium frame works very well. I melt the wax and use a spongy paint roller. You don't need to coat it thickly so it is economical on wax. The real benefit is time, about 100 frames an hour easily by which time the wax is running out and I need to melt another batch.
I've also tried the deep frames in brood boxes but they don't work nearly as well due to any slight warping causing bees to totally ignore some patches.
There is also an American brand called Pierco and I've yet to try that for brood, so perhaps that's better.
Other advantages - no blowouts in the extractor, and scraping of crystallized honey is fairly easy to do without wrecking the frame. Bees seem to like them - probably because you're giving them pure beeswax not a blend as in foundation. But I can't say for sure whether they prefer them or not. I may have mixed them with wood but mostly a new box will go on as plastic frames only.

Thanks. I'd read similar things about the larger frames having warping issues that the medium frames didn't. Good to hear of your experiences.

IMHO I wouldn't recommend them at all.

No disrespect to the supplier where I bought them but the batch I bought were warped and twisted in every direction, made even worse when coated in melted wax. Due to the fact they were warped the bees colony didn't make a good job of drawing them out, in places the colony made brace comb 90' to the frames to fill the over sized gaps between the frames.

I then stumbled across sheets of waxed foundation on the thr0rns website which fitted nicely into wooden frames. Sadly though they have stop importing them from Dadant due to the fact they are precoated with a film of wax or I would of recommended you bought the sheets instead. See http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=205515&postcount=18

Hmm, maybe a bad quality control issue there. Certainly worth being vigilant about if I try plastic.
Were they the medium (3/4) Langstroth?
What brand were they?
Did you raise the issue of warpage with the supplier at all?

No more than the usual amount of brace comb compared to wood/wax.
I am mostly using the same drawn comb, the few frames that needed cleaning up I just scrapped the comb off and gave the frame straight back as it still had a good covering of wax.

What is your reasoning for wanting mediums? Mine are on deeps and I find most of my queens lay up two boxes happily and I don't find the bigger frame difficult to handle.

I am interested in Mediums for a few reasons. MB extols the virtues of all medium hives in a sufficiently convincing way (I know they're selling them but they're also selling normal and jumbo depth but don't seem to recommend those over mediums).
In a nutshell, the reasons are:

• Having all same size frames makes life easier and I can use re-use drawn comb anywhere in the hive.
• Having all medium bodies gives me greater flexibility across a few hives with less gear.
• A single medium LS brood box seems to be slightly lower capacity than a standard National. This give me plenty of space to grow a colony and then I can expand to a second brood box and still have all my frames the same size (instead of brood and a half), making AS easier.
• Lighter hives and frames. I'm no 6 stone weakling but there's no point making life harder than necessary.

From what I've learned already these seem to be valid reasons to go all medium but if I've made some sort of glaring error then please correct me. There were some other reasons that I came across to do with ease of applying certain techniques but I can't remember them now.

Do I understand you right when you say you're using 2 deep brood boxes in one hive? Is that two jumbo LS boxes or two 'normal' LS boxes? Either still seems pretty huge, congrats on your megabees!

As an aside, if the colony was really bursting out of two mediums, is it feasible to add a third or is that just not done? (It would be a nice quandary to have at least). Interestingly, I spoke to a very nice FERA inspector at an event recently who was of the opinion that a standard National box was sufficient for any brood box (due to laying/hatching rates) but that seems to fly in the face of experience from others who have neede dbrrod and a half (on National).

Tl;dr: Thanks for the feedback everyone.

 

[Mike a]

Hmm, maybe a bad quality control issue there. Certainly worth being vigilant about if I try plastic.
Were they the medium (3/4) Langstroth?
What brand were they?
Did you raise the issue of warpage with the supplier at all?

I raised it with the supplier and they offered to replace them by sending another batch telling me to keep the warped ones which is very trusting but I got the feeling I wasn't the only one to have problems with these frames.

The replacements arrived and most were ok'ish but some were still warped, but as soon as the molten wax was applied they all warped to the point I didn't use them.

I'm considering cutting off the side bars and trimming off the top bar so i'm only left with a tabs all round the foundation pattern to support them in wooden frames and applying the wax the cold method by simply rubbing it on in the hope its enough to encourage the colony to draw them out but I have some doubts if this will work but worth a try.

 

[drstitson]

Last time i spoke to hannah from MB (at the spring convention 2012) she mentioned that she doesn't bother coating with wax.

I've tried and they are happy without BUT must be using unwarped frames - any variation from the expected beespace and they will draw comb either parallel or perpendicular.

 

[oliver90owner]

I've used the rigid plastic foundations from big T in the past - just for shallows, but they didn't like to be stuffed into the Burco boiler to remove the wax!! None in service now.

The only point I would raise is why buy foundation to coat the frames? A local keeper with guaranteed healthy wax could supply much more for much less!

 

[Skyhook]

I am interested in Mediums for a few reasons. MB extols the virtues of all medium hives in a sufficiently convincing way (I know they're selling them but they're also selling normal and jumbo depth but don't seem to recommend those over mediums).
In a nutshell, the reasons are:

• Having all same size frames makes life easier and I can use re-use drawn comb anywhere in the hive.
• Having all medium bodies gives me greater flexibility across a few hives with less gear.
• A single medium LS brood box seems to be slightly lower capacity than a standard National. This give me plenty of space to grow a colony and then I can expand to a second brood box and still have all my frames the same size (instead of brood and a half), making AS easier.
• Lighter hives and frames. I'm no 6 stone weakling but there's no point making life harder than necessary.

From what I've learned already these seem to be valid reasons to go all medium but if I've made some sort of glaring error then please correct me. There were some other reasons that I came across to do with ease of applying certain techniques but I can't remember them now.

As an aside, if the colony was really bursting out of two mediums, is it feasible to add a third or is that just not done? (It would be a nice quandary to have at least). Interestingly, I spoke to a very nice FERA inspector at an event recently who was of the opinion that a standard National box was sufficient for any brood box (due to laying/hatching rates) but that seems to fly in the face of experience from others who have neede dbrrod and a half (on National).

Tl;dr: Thanks for the feedback everyone.

If I remember right, Finman uses one size boxes and no QE, and just gives them as many boxes as they want: so he may be able to give you some feedback on that.

I would say your FERA inspector is in a shrinking minority- even many of the maturer beekeepers at my BKA are going over to 14 x 12.

.

 

[JohnF]

I did not like the brood pattern as each frame was neither all brood or stores and whilst being lighter you still had to lift the whole box of to get to the next one down,with just using a deep you don't need to lift unless double Brood.