Full nuc trying to swarm?

[Woodland bees]

I'm new to bee keeping this year but did go on a course by our local bee society. We started off with a 6 frame nuc and put them into a national brood box and then the fun began... Basically we've spent most of the year trying to stop them swarming, failing and then catching the swarms.

We had a cast swarm at the start of July and decided to pop it in a 6 frame poly nuc as we didn't expect it to do that well. We did buy an additional 6 frame brood chamber and 6 frame super just in case and in the end they did very well. Last inspection 10 days ago showed at least 7 frames (out of 12) full of brood in all stages, some stores and the six super frames mostly full of stores and capped.

The bees are on the edge of mature woodland with loads of ivy which is covered in flowers. We've been warned about the ivy honey so we've fed them a bit to reduce the risk of ivy honey solidifying next to the brood.

Yesterday though the hive seemed to be trying to swarm. There were far more bees outside the hive than normal and a layer about 5cm thick under the hive. I've had a quick look through the super and top brood box and there's no sign of any q cells but as the weather is very windy I did not look through the bottom brood box. (Most brood is in the top brood box and there's no q x).

We've not treated for varroa as the counts have been very low, all the frames were new and we didn't want to risk the colony going off lay.

I can only conclude they are either mad or considering swarming. Can anyone offer another explanation? We do have two other wooden national hives and they are busy but not doing anything like the nuc. Is it possible they are just going through the motions, they all returned to the hive last night but earlier in the year something similar happened in a different hive and they swarmed the next day.

If they are swarming is there a reason? At the moment I'm mostly concerned about over feeding. When I enquired at our local club if you can over feed I was told no but I'm not convinced. They did have about 3 brood frames empty in the bottom brood box 10 days ago so assumed they had space but then they don't seem to like building down. Today I might replace a couple of super frames with fresh foundation to see if that helps.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

overcrowded, combined with over feeding means the bees are bearding outside to make room for air circulation for honey ripening

 

[Anduril]

overcrowded, combined with over feeding means the bees are bearding outside to make room for air circulation for honey ripening

You can over feed

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I'm new to bee keeping this year but did go on a course by our local bee society. We started off with a 6 frame nuc and put them into a national brood box and then the fun began... Basically we've spent most of the year trying to stop them swarming, failing and then catching the swarms.

We had a cast swarm at the start of July and decided to pop it in a 6 frame poly nuc as we didn't expect it to do that well. We did buy an additional 6 frame brood chamber and 6 frame super just in case and in the end they did very well. Last inspection 10 days ago showed at least 7 frames (out of 12) full of brood in all stages, some stores and the six super frames mostly full of stores and capped.

The bees are on the edge of mature woodland with loads of ivy which is covered in flowers. We've been warned about the ivy honey so we've fed them a bit to reduce the risk of ivy honey solidifying next to the brood.

Yesterday though the hive seemed to be trying to swarm. There were far more bees outside the hive than normal and a layer about 5cm thick under the hive. I've had a quick look through the super and top brood box and there's no sign of any q cells but as the weather is very windy I did not look through the bottom brood box. (Most brood is in the top brood box and there's no q x).

We've not treated for varroa as the counts have been very low, all the frames were new and we didn't want to risk the colony going off lay.

I can only conclude they are either mad or considering swarming. Can anyone offer another explanation? We do have two other wooden national hives and they are busy but not doing anything like the nuc. Is it possible they are just going through the motions, they all returned to the hive last night but earlier in the year something similar happened in a different hive and they swarmed the next day.

If they are swarming is there a reason? At the moment I'm mostly concerned about over feeding. When I enquired at our local club if you can over feed I was told no but I'm not convinced. They did have about 3 brood frames empty in the bottom brood box 10 days ago so assumed they had space but then they don't seem to like building down. Today I might replace a couple of super frames with fresh foundation to see if that helps.

As a relatively new beekeeper would you recognise new bees being raised for the winter making orientation flights? (this in addition to overcrowding as already mentioned.)

 

[Hebeegeebee]

You have almost answered your own question! You know that there's a lot of food in the hive and you are concerned about over-feeding. And, yes you can overfeed. However you haven't checked in the lower box. That's where the brood is likely to be and where queencells are likely to be - although unlikely at this time of year unless there's one due to supercedure.
I would check the hive as you have only done 1/2 the job so far. If there is no space you might consider removing a sealed comb - which will keep - and adding a frame of foundation which should be drawn if the colony is doing well.

Mite drop counts are unreliable. I would not risk losing my bees - even if they are swarmy buggers like yours - for the sake of a few quid.

 

[Woodland bees]

Thanks for the replies.

I've seen plenty of orientation flights and unless the winter bees behave very differently I don't think it's just the flights. I know the entrance is small but don't think that's causing the problem.

The bearding sounds more plausible, they've done it again today (to a lesser extent, more a goatee) but as far as I can see they've not swarmed. I stopped feeding them a few days before the problem but they're still making a literal bee line to the ivy.

I replaced two frames in the super this morning so we'll see what happens. It's just been too windy (30-40mph gusts) to give the hive a thorough inspection IMO.

 

[Amari]

I'm having difficulty understanding the hive configuration. Is it two six frame nuc-brood boxes one on top of the other with a 6 frame super on top of that? It sounds unstable in a high wind and cumbersome to examine. Why don't you put all the brood frames into a full-size bb and a full size super above (or below)?

 

[Woodland bees]

I'm having difficulty understanding the hive configuration. Is it two six frame nuc-brood boxes one on top of the other with a 6 frame super on top of that? It sounds unstable in a high wind and cumbersome to examine. Why don't you put all the brood frames into a full-size bb and a full size super above (or below)?

Good question. Yes, it's a normal 6 frame nuc with an additional 6 frame brood chamber, then super, then feeder, then lid. Yes it's a tad unstable although strapped down.

Why? It was a back-up we bought just in case as we've already got two wooden national hives from the single nuc of bees we bought in the spring.

In the end the poly nuc has done much better than expected and in hind sight we could/should have bought yet another wooden national but then they probably wouldn't have done so well.

 

[Amari]

Sounds as though it's time to buy more full-size kit. With three colonies it would be wise to have spare boxes to hand ready for the swarming season next year. The commonly used Pagden method of swarm control (if you find unsealed queen cells) needs an extra floor,bb and roof.

 

[Woodland bees]

We do plan on buying some more kit although when we started out with the first nuc we were told they're unlikely to swarm. We bought a spare hive that ended up being used when we split them as they kept building q cells. We're reluctant to buy too much in case we end up with no bees and half a dozen hives.

If all three colonies make it through to spring we'll end up buying a couple more hives, possible some extra brood boxes and several more supers.

Plenty to think about before then, such as to run them on a double brood or something else, re-q if we've got a swarmy strain etc.

I was promised they'd be easy to look after.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Nowt wrong with over wintering in double nucs

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Sounds as though it's time to buy more full-size kit. With three colonies it would be wise to have spare boxes to hand ready for the swarming season next year. The commonly used Pagden method of swarm control (if you find unsealed queen cells) needs an extra floor,bb and roof.

I have had great success overwintering on double-brood nuc like that (less the super)

 

[user 6228]

If your name means anything then your bees are finding ivy...lots of it
We have exactly the same config and the same sort of location.
A colony wont need feeding with the ivy flow that we have had, quite the oppposite

And yet we have the same phenomena of bees bearding despite zero feeding. (noqueen cells or drone cells found)

What we have done is move some frames around so that they can access the added boxes & space above via empty drawn comb.

In our case it may be the narrow slot of the entrance tunnel is causing some traffic congestion as well. In the natural abode its more likely to nearer a round hole tunnel.

 

[beeno]

Hi woodland bees,
First thing to do is to look into bottom brood box for QCs and available space as weather is to continue with mild nights. All my colonies are still laying. If they were to swarm you will not get the queen mated.
Seven frames of brood will produce a lot of new bees and unless bottom brood box is empty I would move them into a full box ASAP. If you don't have swarm preparations going on now you probably will in early spring when mating may be a problem. A couple of years ago, I successfully overwintered a nuc, six frames of bees in the bottom brood box with six frames of stores above, very neat and tidy, but not overcrowded.

 

[Woodland bees]

I'll inspect the hive when I'm next able to, thankfully the wind has dropped but it's now pouring down with rain! They did have space in the bottom box 10 days ago, at least three of the frames were empty as they moved to the top box as soon as we put it on. (To be clear they have a total of 12 brood frames and 6 supers). Moving them to a large hive isn't really possible and we would be concerned they wouldn't settle in for winter. We're not in the warmest part of Devon. Moving to a bigger hive in spring is planned.

Derek, yes our bees have access to a vast amount of ivy. We have been told, by more than one experienced bee keeper, that ivy honey can cause problems as it can set hard and the bees find it hard to access in a harsh winter (i.e. they can't get out to get water). This is why we've been advised to feed, to give some thinner honey next to the brood.

Now we're not in a cold part of the country so perhaps we're worrying too much but do you or other people not get any problems with ivy honey during the winter? Long term we'd would prefer not to feed the bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Time to stop fiddling and let the bees settle down for winter.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I'll inspect the hive when I'm next able to,

Now we're not in a cold part of the country so perhaps we're worrying too much but do you or other people not get any problems with ivy honey during the winter? Long term we'd would prefer not to feed the bees.

First para: It's time to talk about my moniker: hard to live up to but as I say I try. I've been thinking about whether I'd inspect that bottom box and I'd be tempted to for peace of mind but on balance I'd try not to. They're not your only colony and if they're THAT swarmy then you're better off without them in your stock. They swarm in, they swarm out; we have to leave room for a little poetry in our beekeeping. The abandoned half could be merged to another colony easily enough. But find QCs and what are you going to do? Might be a rare case of knocking them down I suppose, but an AS? You're dooming at least half the colony.

Second: On the ivy, as you say, you're in freaking Devon, not Vermont. I have overwintered bees almost exclusively on ivy the last three years and it's fine. This idea of titrating the bees' food to be liquid is ridiculous. And if you are worried about isolation starvation then double nucs reduce the risk v-a-v single brood. For various reasons I am only overwintering one of my four main colonies that way but I would love to do it with all.

I take it that super is largely syrup. If not, I'd have that thank you very much AM... <ADD> Ignore this; of course it's syrup. Best leave it on there and hope they eat it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

On the ivy, as you say, you're in freaking Devon, not Vermont. I have overwintered bees almost exclusively on ivy the last three years and it's fine.

bees aren't stupid - they, and ivy have been around for millions of years without human interference - if it was that unmanageable without cutting with syrup - do you think they would be still be so hellbent with collecting it?

 

[Woodland bees]

If it wasn't for the warnings about Ivy from experienced bee keepers I wouldn't have worried. After all, as you say, they've been living together for millennia. We're also more paranoid as it's our first winter with them, hopefully future years we'll leave them to it.

The super is mostly nectar honey, bramble I expect. My understanding about feeding was to fill up space in the brood frames but then we still had lots of brood and eggs when the ivy opened.

I'd rather this colony overwintered and we re-queened if necessary in the spring as the other two colonies are from the same stcok, all from the same queen in our original nuc. That may well be another question once we've read up a bit - do swarmy strains exist or is it the fault of the keeper or both!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why don't you weigh the boxes to ascertain whether thy are more or less at winter weight already. It sounds like you have a full size colony in those boxes. Stores 40lb. Bees 5 then frames and boxes. It would put your mind at rest maybe.
I agree with previous posts. Take feeder off. Take QX off if there is one and leave them alone hefting/weighing now and then after Christmas to check stores.
As for swarmy well Carniolans are renowned for it so need very active management and lots of space but it's not impossible to work with them.
Good luck