Extracting honey from darkened brood frames

[Finman]

.
Question is, is it possible to extract at all. Ethics!
If you extract, is the honey dirty according home made rules
Rules of natural combs... Cell size millimetres

I think that dark powers quide too much beekeeping. Adult prople?

not to mention ethics of varroa killing

What quides me is 100 kg/hive and I have not excluder. Excluder is ethic thing. Do you think so. And douple brood is forbidden to beginners.

What I say.... Guys invent all kind of rules, which have no sense bases in beekeeping. Just rules for fun.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

.
douple brood is forbidden to beginners.

Well I went @Finman style in my first year and although I had no 100 kg hive, my main producer this year gave 32 kg so thank you for that. One great moment was the seasonal bee inspector going through the 5 brood boxes with a "what the f fo you think you are up to" tone and only looking for brood. Bottom box: pollen. Second box, nectar. Third box, nectar and a frame of drones. "I'm worried; three boxes and no worker brood". Then the big reveal. So they wanted her at the top, so having no QE made them happier. Equals more honey.

BUT you do mix the use of the frames. Now I know nothing about beekeeping, but like most people I have a pretty good nose and I extracted in three stages; white comb, "beige" and "black". The colour of the comb definitely contributes a "note" to the "nose" of the honey. I crushed and strained the four frames that broke, and I got one of each. The crushed "black" wax has a strong aroma and of course that's in the honey propoortional to colour. It's not unpleasant, but it is there and some people strongly avoid it. (Like these guys http://www.slideridge.com/index.php/bee-notes-blog/175-only-the-best-honey-is-good-enough , and they look like they know their honey )

Once filtered, the comb barely changes the colour, and does not change the "mouth" taste much, but it does taste the smell and so the overall taste. But I bet it is one of those things that, once you have a following, it being relatively unusual, that following will swear by it. So it is probably good marketing overall.

Personally, I find it does not go well with the lime that was my main crop this year, so for home use next year I am going to run at least one box broodless and foundationless (have to work out how to get them to draw it!) then crush and strain out some "pure" Lime honey and see how it goes. Learning by doing: I'm loving it...

 

[Finman]

.
You Try to make your own beekeeping science.

If you have big hive, you need good pastures too and short flying distances.
.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

.
You Try to make your own beekeeping science.

If you have big hive, you need good pastures too and short flying distances.
.

Yes: I only get that with lime really. But that is all around; from 30m to 400m away they have all they need. Then that's it: I need to find some heather. Not easy in a muddy valley like London.

 

[Finman]

I crushed and strained the four frames that broke, and I got one of each. The crushed "black" wax has a strong aroma and of course that's in the honey propoortional to colour. It's not unpleasant, but it is there and some people strongly avoid it.

...

Who in heck goes and crush old black honey combs! Don't you have extractor. Every larva makes a pupasilk but before that it makes poo onto cell bottom. Bees clean the cell before they put honey into cell.
Frames has stored pollen, and the taste is awfull.

What is bad taste is fermented cappings, called mead...


Bees just have just such life system, and honey is meant to their wintering food.
That is honey. They start brood rearing from top and go down during summer. Then they eate food during winter and go from down to up. They really use all combs for brood and storing honey.

If you believe that you can affect on honey aroma with comb age, it really needs imagination.

 

[Finman]

.
Guys, do you really think that British beginner needs this kind of horrible stories about honey and brood frames.... And based on what? More or less imagination.

 

[oliver90owner]

One thing you don't do is crush and strain anything other than unbrooded comb. Just a bit of common sense needed on a topic like this.

Particularly those that use a heat gun for uncapping, will not get anything in their honey; the heat will only melt the fresh capping wax, so nothing but nothing will leave those cells bar honey.

Sure, extracting from the dirtiest, most blackened comb will give 'extras' in the honey. The comb will likely have been walked over by so many bees with dirty feet that there may be. A little more than honey present. We know how nosema can be spread, but the bees clean out those cells just like they clean out out any other cells before adding nectar, so no pathogens left behind. They know if they are adding to previously filled comb, such as with remnants of OSR which has granulated and only occasionally fill over good pollen. They don't fill over mouldy frames in the spring, do they?

Sometimes a lot of people underestimate the ability of the honey bee.


edited: a teeny behind Finman, but on same wavelenth!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Who in heck goes and crush old black honey combs! Don't you have extractor. Every larva makes a pupasilk but before that it makes poo onto cell bottom. Bees clean the cell before they put honey into cell.
Frames has stored pollen, and the taste is awfull.

I admit I have never understood (winter reading needed) the contradiction between cell-cleaning and residual pupal silk. I need to find out EXACTLY what is left after a brood cycle. I had almost no pollen in any of my frames, including the blackest ones; it was all in the bottom box. I only crushed the frames that broke in the extractor. Four out of about forty.

 

[Finman]

.
When you have old bad combs, do not put them into hive. It is not rare that after winter many combs in the brood box are in bad condition and you should abort them.

And let the bees draw new combs during main flow. Put brood size foundations over excluder and bees do it. Then you have new combs for next spring.

When brood combs are old enough, put them over excluder and give founfations into brood box. Bees emerge out and fill cells with honey. Extract them and take them away from usage. So do most of professionals.

Forget Bailey exhange. It is very wastefull habit.

 

[Finman]

. I only crushed the frames that broke in the extractor. Four out of about forty.

You could let the bees suck the honey off from broken combs.... As you clean other combs.
Extracted combs have still 20% honey after extraction.

 

[Madge]

...I have a pretty good nose and I extracted in three stages; white comb, "beige" and "black". The colour of the comb definitely contributes a "note" to the "nose" of the honey. I crushed and strained the four frames that broke, and I got one of each. The crushed "black" wax has a strong aroma and of course that's in the honey propoortional to colour. ...

Maybe the reason for you detecting a 'note' in the honey might be because you crushed the combs. I suppose it's more likely that bits of broken cocoon might get mixed into the honey than with spinning. Just guessing.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

You could let the bees suck the honey off from broken combs.... As you clean other combs.
Extracted combs have still 20% honey after extraction.

Thanks Finski; I really appreciate all your help and ideas.

 

[Finman]

.
But how can you brake old combs in extraction? They are very tough.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

.

But how can you brake old combs in extraction? They are very tough.

By frig-rigging a radial extractor built for shallows only. I had to wedge my mediums in at an angle and support them with cake racks. Miraculously, the only ones I could find could have been designed around a National brood frame.

@oliver90owner ; yes, but I am experimenting in my fist year, and "quarantined" the dark frames at the end of extraction. Thanks for all your help in my first year too.

 

[Finman]

.

So, the reason was extractor, not brood combs.

When you broke those combs, you could cut them to super size and extract.

Use brains, less muscles

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

@Mellifers Crofter; I think that is bang on. Interesting paper that answers my question about why the cocoon is not cleaned out: it basically gets incorporated into the wax. http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/publications/effects_comb_age.pdf

"The bulk of the evidence suggests that new combs optimize overall honey bee colony health and reproduction."

So it comes down against old comb, but is talking in terms of 68 brood cycles at one point! And to be clear, the oldest, blackest frame I was dealing with was exactly a year old.

 

[Dared]

I am looking to change out combs (brood and super combs) as best I can by moving to the outside so used less BUT do you eventually have to bite the bullet and remove the frame when can still be full of honey / Pollen. Keep hoping they would empty the old frames but as has been said before the bees and especially the queen seem to love old comb!!

 

[Finman]

I am looking to change out combs (brood and super combs) as best I can by moving to the outside so used less BUT do you eventually have to bite the bullet and remove the frame when can still be full of honey / Pollen. Keep hoping they would empty the old frames but as has been said before the bees and especially the queen seem to love old comb!!

Lift the old combs over excluder and let the bees emerge from them.
If frame has pollen, put it inside brood area and bees eate pollen in a week. Then lift larvae over excluder.

If you move old comb on side, bees fill it with pollen.

If bees store pollen over excluder, you have too few space in brood room.