Epic fail

[Illo]

I have had three artificial swarms fail so far this season, and am not sure exactly why. Was hoping for some enlightenment. Here's the method, and the recurring problem...

(Long query follows, so please bear with...)

My beekeeping mentor advocates a demaree-style AS which splits a colony already developing queen cells vertically, in such a way as to permit easy consolidation if you don't want to make increase.

The method is as follows

Day 1. Using additional components as necessary, from the bottom up, build the hive thus:
Floor;
New brood box containing frames of foundation and one central frame of brood and the existing, laying queen. No queen cells;
Queen excluder;
Couple of supers, or add 1 super to those already in use;
Modified crown board, feed/escape holes open, rear-facing entrance on the upper side, closed in the first instance;
Old brood box containing all brood; one QC
Crown board;
Roof

With transit allowed between top and bottom, flying bees migrate to bottom box, nurse bees remain in top BB with brood.

On day 3 open rear door. Place mesh panels over feed/escape holes. Newly emerging brood and emerging queen will orient to the rear door. Bees now confined to either top or bottom, with no transit between the two, but can communicate through the mesh. Ensure no QC in bottom box and only 1 unsealed cell in the top.

Thereafter; allow new queen to develop in top box. Once mated, either split top and bottom, or choose one queen and consolidate back down to one colony.

The aim is that the existing laying queen with flying bees in the bottom box are as if swarmed.

With only one exception when I have tried this, the split colony has swarmed from the bottom box. The first time this happened, I assumed that because of an oncoming cold snap, the bees were unable to draw the foundation and HM ran out of laying space, and was off.

Tried again this year. Similar happened, even when I added drawn comb to provide instant laying space in the bottom box, and the temperatures have been warm throughout. So today I watched my best queen disappear over the trees in a cloud of bees, never to be seen again. There are not QCs in the bottom box, they just fail to draw comb well at all, and then leave.

I feel the method is fundamentally flawed, but would value the thoughts of those more experienced. Does maintaining contact (and transfer of pheromone) between top and bottom boxes via the mesh panels mean that the bees in the bottom know of the existence of the QC in the top, and therefore fail to lose the swarming impulse?

I do have fairly swarmy stock, but this is just getting silly.
I'm maybe missing something, but I'm not sure what!

Thanks in advance!

LJ

 

[oliver90owner]

I have never demareed to A/S. I have used it as a means of swarm 'avoidance' by splitting off the brood, before swarm cells are produced, and for inducing supercedure cells for my limited queen rearing requirements. Started doing it with my first Dartington, so it was a 'horizontal demaree' for that.

My thoughts are that Padgen is a jolly good system and with 14 x 12 brood boxes, I don't want to be checking that bottom box too often!

You are likely correct that they go because they are swarmy and there is/are still Q/cell(s) in the colony and the swarming impulse has not been satisfied.

If it don't work, change it.

RAB

 

[london_flower_guy]

I've never tried this but it sounds like the snelgrove method, which I've seen a demonstration of once when invited to another keepers apiary to tend his bees whilst he was away. I found it easier to have a whole complete hive alongside and do a traditional artificial swarm. What put me off ever trying your method myself was because you have to remove and sit of the floor the top box whilst checking the lower box, the returning foragers often get confused and enter the wrong box causing mayhem and squabbling. Also I think you should have placed the new box on top - that way its easier to fit an eek or empty super on top separated with a crown board so that you can feed them syrup.

The probably reason why they did not draw out comb in bottom box is because they were not being fed 2:1 syrup and bees need a good syrup/nectar flow to stimulate production of wax, regardless of the temperature (you didn't mention that you fed them so I'm assuming you did not)

 

[london_flower_guy]

the bees may sense the queen cell in top box so thats whats making them swarm, or it might even be if they were not fed, and therefore not able to draw wax that they swarmed to escape starvation since they are on undrawn frames with no stores and no way to draw wax.

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Illo I have taken to the demaree method I like it and it is I think reasonably flexible to allow for individual experimentation.

I do a similar thing to you apart from I only fit the division board some 4-5 days after the demaree is set up but it is basically the same as you.

I am also happy to wait for the bees to start swarm proceedings but perhaps where I differ is if the QC’s are very advanced I remove them all as I think the trigger for swarming is to great and I want to give them a few days to settle into the new system. The removal of QC’s obviously will not stop them but will slow them down.

You say your bees are swarmy then this may be another factor and perhaps you should try the demaree before QC’s are produced as a swarm prevention method opposed to swarm control, but then some bees may just ignore this and swarm anyway.

 

[Illo]

Thanks RAB and L_F_G for quick responses.

L_F_G ; the bottom box has access to the supers and and stores (lots!) so they are unlikely to be in starvation mode. There is a monumental flow on here at the moment too. Also, because the bees all have similar pheromone courtesy of the mesh panels, there is no squabbling - they all 'smell' the same. This is purposeful so that you could consolidate in one action without going down the newspaper route. There is a problem is as RAB points out, dissembling the whole lot (which can be taller than I am with these big boxes!) to inspect is a menace, but that just takes time and muscle rather than any special measures.

LJ

 

[Illo]

And Tom ...slipped a response in while I was typing there!

 

[galileo]

Hi Illo

What you essentially have with your modified crown board, is a rudimentary Horsley board. The system you describe in terms of timing and operations, is also very much like the Horsley method for swarm control.

I'm sure you're perfectly capable of ensuring that there are zero QCs on the transferred frame that goes with the queen, so I won't insult you by suggesting otherwise. However, a more subtle reason for bottom box swarming, is not so much that the swarming pheremone is detected from top box to bottom, but that the frame containing the queen has it, and it can last for several weeks.

My variant is to slip in a drawn but empty comb along with the brood frame, so that the queen can lay it up quickly, then go in 4 days later and either remove any swarm cells they've made on the brood frame, or if the free comb is laid, to remove said brood frame and pop it back into the top box.

No promises mind, but the best of luck.

 

[Chris B]

What you described is is not quite as positive as an AS. It is a Demaree-like method and will likely stop swarming sometimes but not always. Demaree is more often a technique to stop them getting into swarm-mode in the first place. Maybe combined with queen clipping it would be more reliable?

 

[beeno]

Hi Illo,
You are supposed to check bottom box after three days for QCs. If you don't and she is already in swarm mode i.e. you carried out the Demaree after QCs found she is likely to go.

 

[YorkshireBees]

A lot of good advice already.

One or two answers that although attempting to be helpful are completely wrong in my opinion.

Anyway I am using a form of demaree for the 3rd year and have had the most success this year. The key elements in the version I am using are:-

1.Timing - In my case I attempt to demaree the colony BEFORE they start to produce queen cells as I find once they start it is very likely even when demareed that they carry on!

2.Using Drawn comb in the new brood box - I was taught that if you transfer a queen that is in full flow of laying eggs into a box containing just foundation and she has no where to lay that it will more than likely get them to swarm anyway. (Difference of opinion between methods)

To add to the above, obviously there should be a good flow on at the time and enough supers added between the boxes to allow for the storage of the nectar.

Of 5 colonies that I demareed 2 weeks ago only 1 went on to produce queen cells in the new box and that was the one that had produced 2 charged queen cells before demaree!
Of the remaining 4, 1 has now 8 new frames of brood and the other 4-6 with no signs of queen cells.

It was interesting that you were told to keep tje top entrance closed for the first fews days so that all the foragers have to leave via the bottom entrance (this is something I will try on the next hive I do). I have found the only draw back (if you can call it that) is that the top brood box often gets filled with honey!
The only other difference is that I generally use this to prevent swarming and when I want to make an increase I usually make a Nuc up from the top box when I first inspect to remove queencells.
Oh and my division / demaree board is self made from a feeder board with a swivel entrance cut into the side and old pieces of queen excluder pinned over the holes. (To prevent the drones getting into the supers).

 

[Illo]

Hi Illo,
You are supposed to check bottom box after three days for QCs. If you don't and she is already in swarm mode i.e. you carried out the Demaree after QCs found she is likely to go.

I do check - no QC in bottom box. the method was text book, hence my query. Inherent swarminess coupled with communication up and down the stack perhaps.

 

[YorkshireBees]

Actually 2 more things to add.

1. I am using standard deeps and believe me I could hardly lift one down from one hive that had just about filled it with honey! That is on a hive with BB - 3 supers - BB

2.There could be something in not transferring a frame containing the queen if the bees have started swarm preparations! I did in fact gently run the queen onto one of the new frames in a couple of the hives due to changing over frame format and not wanting to mix frames in the new box. Again 90% of the new frames are already drawn.

 

[Little John]

What put me off ever trying your method myself was because you have to remove and sit of the floor the top box whilst checking the lower box, the returning foragers often get confused and enter the wrong box causing mayhem and squabbling.

That's easily solved - either keep the top BB a good few feet away, or (as I plan to do) place it on an upturned solid crown board - nothing can get in that way.

The probably reason why they did not draw out comb in bottom box is because they were not being fed 2:1 syrup and bees need a good syrup/nectar flow to stimulate production of wax, regardless of the temperature (you didn't mention that you fed them so I'm assuming you did not)

That is something which concerns me - fortunately I have plenty of drawn comb, having lost a couple of colonies over the winter - but if I hadn't, then yes - some means of getting some thin syrup to the bottom BB would be, I think, probably essential for success.

LJ

 

[galileo]

2.There could be something in not transferring a frame containing the queen if the bees have started swarm preparations!....

Aye - from pp14 of the useful Beecraft booklet "How to use a Horsley Board for Swarm Control" by Michael Badger.

"Many colleagues have said to me that this method has failed! Upon discussion, it transpires that the reason for this (ie, the colony immediately produces queen cells) is because of the retained pheromones on the inserted comb."

 

[YorkshireBees]

...

That is something which concerns me - fortunately I have plenty of drawn comb, having lost a couple of colonies over the winter - but if I hadn't, then yes - some means of getting some thin syrup to the bottom BB would be, I think, probably essential for success.

LJ

...

One or two answers that although attempting to be helpful are completely wrong in my opinion.
...

To add to the above, obviously there should be a good flow on at the time and enough supers added between the boxes to allow for the storage of the nectar.
...

I would personally not attempt a demaree UNLESS there is a good flow on and I would NEVER feed them during a demaree!

The whole point of the demaree besides preventing swarming is that it enables you to build up a large colony of bees without the queen running out of space to lay. This in turn should equal a larger honey crop. How can you expect to get an untainted honey crop if you feed them syrup!

It's June and there should be plenty of forage for bees in most parts of the country at the moment. At least this year as the season / plants are behind!

 

[fiftyjon]

Hi Illo,

I use a vertical AS method successfully as follows:

Place a frame of open brood (without any QC's) together with the queen in a new box on the original site, the box is filled with at least one drawn frame and some stores, the rest is foundation. One or two supers are then placed on a queen excluder on the new brood box. A split board is then placed on the supers with the upper entrance open facing the same way as the original entrance and the lower entrance closed which is on the opposite side. The remainder of the brood is then placed on the split board with one open queen cell left and marked on the frame, others destroyed.
A few days later the bottom box is checked for queen cells.
After a week from the splitting of the hive the split board is turned round 180 degrees and the bottom entrance is opened.
The lower box is now reinforced with the foraging bees from the top box and a queen should emerge from the top and get mated, once laying you either unite removing the old queen or have another colony.

 

[Little John]

The whole point of the demaree besides preventing swarming is that it enables you to build up a large colony of bees without the queen running out of space to lay.

"The whole point" ! Such arrogance.
I see it as a fail-safe method of raising a few queens without splitting hives first. The anti-swarming aspect is a welcomed bonus.
If it is your intention to prevent swarming and build-up a large colony of bees in the process - then simply nadir a second brood box - that's what I've already done (successfully) in view of the adverse weather this year.

This in turn should equal a larger honey crop. How can you expect to get an untainted honey crop if you feed them syrup!

Not everyone is obsessed with obtaining food-grade honey from all hives.
Those hives which I'm about to Demaree are breeding hives - the honey from which always remains bee-food, whether I feed them or not.

LJ

 

[oliver90owner]

Yorshire Bees makes a lot of sens, some less so.

some means of getting some thin syrup to the bottom BB would be, I think, probably essential for success.

What? Unbelievable.

A foraging hive with a couple of supers of stores? Whatever next!

 

[YorkshireBees]

"The whole point" ! Such arrogance.
I see it as a fail-safe method of raising a few queens without splitting hives first. The anti-swarming aspect is a welcomed bonus.
If it is your intention to prevent swarming and build-up a large colony of bees in the process - then simply nadir a second brood box - that's what I've already done (successfully) in view of the adverse weather this year.



Not everyone is obsessed with obtaining food-grade honey from all hives.
Those hives which I'm about to Demaree are breeding hives - the honey from which always remains bee-food, whether I feed them or not.

LJ

And in your case that is fine for you as you state you are not taking hiney from the hives. However as you didn't state that as part of your original answer and , I am assuming, most people will want to harvest their honey for human use I stand by my original answer that Feeding is not part of the procedure.

Each beekeeper can read the answers and make up their own mind as to what their objective is and which version of a method is right for them.

As for arrogance, the only think that I should have added (implied) is that it is my own opinion.

Whatever the reason for using demaree be it swarm prevention, increased colony size / honey crop or raising new queens I do not personally see the need to feed them as I stated I wouldn't attempt (my opinion) the procedure if there was little or no flow.