Emergency Queens

[beeno]

Hi all,
Is anyone on the forum queen rearing by putting the old queen in a nuc and letting the colony raise an emergency queen or two? There has been much debate as to whether emergency queens are any good or not. I just found this quote which I like to share on the subject.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Looking forward to hearing peoples' successes or failures on the subject.

 

[Oscarmonster]

I have done that this year after failed attempts to re queen grumpy hive.
A frame of eggs from nice queen, scraped back the comb below eggs of about the correct age, so they can build queen cell straight down.
Hive now better tempered, will have to wait till next year to see how well she does.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Beeno
Making increase by the Demaree method is basically that - leave queen in bottom box on foundationwith QX on top then super and box with all the brood in. They will draw emergency QC's, go in after three days and tear down all the sealed QC's (that takes care of them using the 'older' larvae) then leave them to it - Once all the QC's are sealed you can make up a few nucs from the top box and even harvest some extra QC's to put into mating nucs.

 

[alanf]

"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons...And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Looking forward to hearing peoples' successes or failures on the subject.

Several US beekeepers, even on a commercial scale appear to routinely rely on emergency queens. Mike Palmer, said as much in an aside in his NHS talk, although he doesn't use them himself.

What Mike and most of the books I've seen emphasise is that a quality queen needs a lot of feeding and attention. The most important factor is a very strong colony with masses of young nurse bees feeding and incubating the cell. I have heard it said locally that many see the weak scrub queens produced by desperate and dwindling colonies and think that applies to all emergency queens.

 

[Goran]

Last year I got one emergency queen, that colony gave me two lang boxes of acacia honey. Surprised me extremely. She is still in a hive and extremely strong colony. Emergency queens I try to colonies be strong as they can and after removing old queen let it queenless. The sixth day I come I tear down all sealed qcells, leaving open ones. After when ripe I select which are acceptable ( cut out if more, leave two in a hive..).
This year I combine it with Cloake board for even better quality.
My queen rearing methods are changing as I am "growing" as beekeeper.. But 6th day still seems relatively reliable and simple for beginners, at least at my place..

I read also "Better queens" from Jay Smith, very nice reading material. Answered to me some doubts which way to go..

 

[beeno]

I have done that this year after failed attempts to re queen grumpy hive.
A frame of eggs from nice queen, scraped back the comb below eggs of about the correct age, so they can build queen cell straight down.
Hive now better tempered, will have to wait till next year to see how well she does.

Hi Oscarmonster,
I am in same position on my nuc after failed A/S attempt by beekeeper (that's me). Have to wait and see also. Would be nice to have a poll on this, but don't know how to do it!

 

[beeno]

Beeno
Making increase by the Demaree method is basically that - leave queen in bottom box on foundationwith QX on top then super and box with all the brood in. They will draw emergency QC's, go in after three days and tear down all the sealed QC's (that takes care of them using the 'older' larvae) then leave them to it - Once all the QC's are sealed you can make up a few nucs from the top box and even harvest some extra QC's to put into mating nucs.

Hi Jenkins,
I saw the Demaree method more as an A/S measure, as I guess one should not really wish to create emergency queens???

 

[beeno]

Several US beekeepers, even on a commercial scale appear to routinely rely on emergency queens. Mike Palmer, said as much in an aside in his NHS talk, although he doesn't use them himself.

What Mike and most of the books I've seen emphasise is that a quality queen needs a lot of feeding and attention. The most important factor is a very strong colony with masses of young nurse bees feeding and incubating the cell. I have heard it said locally that many see the weak scrub queens produced by desperate and dwindling colonies and think that applies to all emergency queens.

Hi alanf,
Emergency queens certainly have a bad reputation as scrub queens. It is a very easy way of requeening though. I am just wondering how reliable the method is when carried out under optimum conditions. Not that I would ever use it myself

 

[beeno]

Last year I got one emergency queen, that colony gave me two lang boxes of acacia honey. Surprised me extremely. She is still in a hive and extremely strong colony. Emergency queens I try to colonies be strong as they can and after removing old queen let it queenless. The sixth day I come I tear down all sealed qcells, leaving open ones. After when ripe I select which are acceptable ( cut out if more, leave two in a hive..).
This year I combine it with Cloake board for even better quality.
My queen rearing methods are changing as I am "growing" as beekeeper.. But 6th day still seems relatively reliable and simple for beginners, at least at my place..

I read also "Better queens" from Jay Smith, very nice reading material. Answered to me some doubts which way to go..

Hi Goran,
Sounds like you have produced more than one, if I read you correctly? If so, how many have you produced by this method and how have they done?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi Jenkins,
I saw the Demaree method more as an A/S measure, as I guess one should not really wish to create emergency queens???

Can be used for both as for 'emergency queens' as Alanf said - you just have to be sure you have a strong colony, and unlike a situation where they are trying to replace a failed queen - with a strong queen they have plenty of eggs to make new queens with..
Many American beekeepers routinely use the 'walkaway split' to make new queens - sugarbush on here is one I believe

 

[Goran]

Hi Goran,
Sounds like you have produced more than one, if I read you correctly? If so, how many have you produced by this method and how have they done?

I am not so long in beekeeping but I can tell of my little experience. This one I mentioned is awesome. I put frame with eggs from desired hive into that colony, so they make of it a queen, of course didn't allowed to they make qcells of eggs from old queen.
Second was also from 2012. got nice honey ( some above average than rest of others), but in August 2013. it seems failing and I replaced her with jenter queen some about beginning of Sept ( unsuccessfully).
This year I made this way but with Cloake board, of one colony which never swarmed and always on top in everything ( jenter queen 2011.). first goal was to maintain some of offsprings if something happen to this j2011. Later I just cut out qcells and make splits with brood from other colonies. The true result will show next year in acacia, but for short observation seems they show that they got enough from their mother..

 

[Luminos]

Hi Oscarmonster,
I am in same position on my nuc after failed A/S attempt by beekeeper (that's me). Have to wait and see also. Would be nice to have a poll on this, but don't know how to do it!

Beeno, if you click on "New thread" it gives an option at the bottom to do a Poll

 

[blackie]

I done five splits this year with emergency qcells all five queens were same size as mated ones ive bought .but I made sure they were drawn out on new foundation and they built up fine but were see in spring .

 

[drstitson]

the risk with emergency queens is that they'll be raised from older larvae, meaning less of the appropriate feeding. obviously no reason why a newly hatched larva can't make for a good queen though.

i suppose the other issue is that you really need strong colonies to produce good queens - so an emergency type queen produced by a ready to swarm colony will be better than one made by a dwindling nuc.

 

[Goran]

the risk with emergency queens is that they'll be raised from older larvae, meaning less of the appropriate feeding. obviously no reason why a newly hatched larva can't make for a good queen though.

i suppose the other issue is that you really need strong colonies to produce good queens - so an emergency type queen produced by a ready to swarm colony will be better than one made by a dwindling nuc.

When talk ready to swarm, just don't expand brood space in spring and
Stuff with feed and will have lot of swarm qcells which are better quality. I don't do that cause i first go for honey then later for queens.

 

[Goran]

Forgot.when talk about emergency queens, 6th day i come and teardown sealed qcells to don't have older larva. of course always strong colony, not some nucs or weak colonies for a proper result.

 

[mbc]

Several US beekeepers, even on a commercial scale appear to routinely rely on emergency queens. Mike Palmer, said as much in an aside in his NHS talk, although he doesn't use them himself.

What Mike and most of the books I've seen emphasise is that a quality queen needs a lot of feeding and attention. The most important factor is a very strong colony with masses of young nurse bees feeding and incubating the cell. I have heard it said locally that many see the weak scrub queens produced by desperate and dwindling colonies and think that applies to all emergency queens.

Not just across the pond either, I've just read Ron Browns little book (honey bees a guide to management)and he advocates making strong five frame nucs and leaving them to raise their own cells.
I suppose its a case of being ok if you know what you're doing and make sure there is plenty of young bees and nutrients to make the emergency cell, its not something I'd suggest to a beginner though.

 

[DulwichGnome]

I didn't really understand about emergency queens till I read this, page 4 shows a diagram of how she lays in the cell.
http://www.countryrubes.com/images/Natural_Supersedure_of_Queens_in_Honey_Bee_Colonies.pdf

Mike.

 

[Itchy]

I didn't really understand about emergency queens till I read this, page 4 shows a diagram of how she lays in the cell.
http://www.countryrubes.com/images/Natural_Supersedure_of_Queens_in_Honey_Bee_Colonies.pdf

Mike.

Good find

 

[DulwichGnome]

Good find

He has a few more on the site which are interesting,
http://www.countryrubes.com/information/khalilhamdanarticles.html

Mike.