Drawing comb before winter

[Chris Nother]

Hi folks,

One of our hives that we had split and took quite a while to raise a new queen is progressing very well and the brood box is full of brood and a little by way of stores. As this was our first season, we had no drawn comb so after the split we replaced the removed frames with foundation. Three of these frames have remained undrawn all summer and I am concerned that they may not have enough room for stores for the winter. Should I pop in fresh foundation and then feed them well in the hope they will draw out the frames and have plenty by way of stores or should I wait until the queen throttles back on the laying before feeding and hope that the frames currently full of brood will be sufficient for stores. There remain a lot of bees in the hive but no real flow on here but I am concerned they seem tight for space (for bees not brood) - but is putting a super on just for space a good or bad idea?

Thanks,

Chris.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Feed them and they should draw it out. You can move it around inside the box to encourage this. Bees are very reluctant to use stores to draw comb they do it when there is a flow on.
If your concerned about space you can add a super if you wish (I would put it under the brood box), if that super isn't drawn then your just making more work when there is no nectar coming in so again you may have to feed.

 

[Chris Nother]

Feed them and they should draw it out. You can move it around inside the box to encourage this. Bees are very reluctant to use stores to draw comb they do it when there is a flow on.
If your concerned about space you can add a super if you wish (I would put it under the brood box), if that super isn't drawn then your just making more work when there is no nectar coming in so again you may have to feed.

Thanks! I do have plenty of drawn super frames so that's OK - queen excluder or not? I'm banking on feeding being the key to getting the remaining foundation drawn out and filled for the winter!

 

[Nige.Coll]

No QE

 

[Chris Nother]

No QE

PS - why below the Brood Box?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Hi Chris, imo I wouldn't nadir a super unless they had it above already with stores that weren't capped.

I would check the undrawn frames and if there OK.
I would move frame 10 to 9 in the brood box. All depending how strong they are I would possibly put an undrawn frame in the middle of the cluster.
This might not work for everyone.

Put a feeder on with 1:1 and feed 1/2/ltrs ever 2/3 days, single brood is usually 3 days and double 2 days.
You should have the frames drawn in a week to ten days, If not earlier.

I would leave them to it for 10 daysThen have a quick inspection of the frames you have moved.

If all is well and youve no more flows then I would start feeding 2:1.
Are you treating for varroa?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I wouldn't nadir a super unless they had it above already with stores that weren't capped.

I would - it's a handy way of giving them some extra space whilst dicouraging them for putting stores in it -they will put stores up top but will have room to shift down into whilst ripening it, or until the colony reduces in size as winter approaches.
Contrary to the current fashion, there is a lot more to nadiring a shallow than just to shift winter stores about.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I would - it's a handy way of giving them some extra space whilst dicouraging them for putting stores in it -they will put stores up top but will have room to shift down into whilst ripening it, or until the colony reduces in size as winter approaches.
Contrary to the current fashion, there is a lot more to nadiring a shallow than just to shift winter stores about.

I know like using one as a wind break.
And I understand what your saying.
I was thinking of getting the comb drawn and keeping them as tight as pos.

 

[Speybee]

Glad I just found this thread.
I’ve got myself into a right pickle.
I have finished inspecting a hive that I had made into a brood and a half nest,10 days ago and I fed 1:1 syrup to let them draw out the wax.
The deep brood box at the bottom is full of bees but no evidence of fresh eggs but the half brood nest which instead is full with capped stores.

I have just finished putting on a new super box of wired undrawn shallows directly on top of the deep brood nest box to make a refreshed brood and a half nest box to ease congestion.
The capped stores I have just put on top of a queen excluder now, my reasoning being that the bees would move the capped stores down into the brood nest and perhaps use some stores to give them energy to draw out the new box shallow frames on top of the deep brood box.

I had never heard of the term to Nadir the brood nest box until I found this thread and I have finished my inspection of this hive, this afternoon.
1) should I leave it all in the configuration I made today?
2) OR at next inspection move the capped stores from above the QE and put the box directly above the mesh floor followed by the deep brood nest box, the QE and the undrawn honey super?
3) a pal of mine suggested I spin off those capped stores, but I think of this as pinching their larder for the coming winter and counterproductive in the long term.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Glad I just found this thread.
I’ve got myself into a right pickle.
I have finished inspecting a hive that I had made into a brood and a half nest,10 days ago and I fed 1:1 syrup to let them draw out the wax.
The deep brood box at the bottom is full of bees but no evidence of fresh eggs but the half brood nest which instead is full with capped stores.

I have just finished putting on a new super box of wired undrawn shallows directly on top of the deep brood nest box to make a refreshed brood and a half nest box to ease congestion.
The capped stores I have just put on top of a queen excluder now, my reasoning being that the bees would move the capped stores down into the brood nest and perhaps use some stores to give them energy to draw out the new box shallow frames on top of the deep brood box.

I had never heard of the term to Nadir the brood nest box until I found this thread and I have finished my inspection of this hive, this afternoon.
1) should I leave it all in the configuration I made today?
2) OR at next inspection move the capped stores from above the QE and put the box directly above the mesh floor followed by the deep brood nest box, the QE and the undrawn honey super?
3) a pal of mine suggested I spin off those capped stores, but I think of this as pinching their larder for the coming winter and counterproductive in the long term.

Firstly - the 'honey' which you have in the sealed super is not honey, as you have been feeding, it's just sugar that the bees have inverted and stored
The bees will not move those stores down into the brood box but will keep it on top for their winter stores.
The question I ask is, are they truly congested? from now on the colony will begin to contract and will probably be happier with just the brood and super (Queen excluder removed) for the winter, you can then sort things out in the spring.
Putting the sealed super below the brood box is not a good idea, especially at the moment - with wasp predation on the increase you are leaving the colony wide open to robbing (from both wasps and bees) as the stores will not be tucked behind or above the colony, therefore the coloby will find it harder to protect.

 

[Speybee]

The reason I think they were congested is that last week when we had muggy weather the bees were slightly bearding like a wee couple inch Moustache, outside the hive, which I had never seen before.
When I looked from afar I could see them all bunched up together on the mesh floor filling the entrance so to speak.
The sealed brood that was there over 8 deep nest frames is no more but loads of bees instead covering all the frames, so they’ve hatched.
So does that mean I move the sealed box of stores back directly on top of the deep brood box so the configuration should now be as follows
One deep brood nest box, one shallow sealed stores and crown board?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No, leave as is, brood, empty shallow,full shallow, next month take away QX and empty shallow and leave the full shallow for winter stores, if you have ivy in your area I doubt you'll need to feed much more. In the spring the queen will be laying in the shallow, make sure she's down in the brood chamber then replace the QX

 

[drex]

Remember, the natural configuration of a colony is to have stores above and away from the entrance and brood below and nearer the entrance. This is why a nadir of stores gets moved out of that box, if not taken by robbers or wasps for whom it is easy pickings being so close to the entrance

 

[Speybee]

No, leave as is, brood, empty shallow,full shallow, next month take away QX and empty shallow and leave the full shallow for winter stores, if you have ivy in your area I doubt you'll need to feed much more. In the spring the queen will be laying in the shallow, make sure she's down in the brood chamber then replace the QX

Thanks for that advice. Will have deep brood, empty shallow, stores and next month I will remove the QE and see how they are fixed for winter.
Loads of ivy up here for winter and in spring plenty of wild snowdrops and from my wee orchard plenty of crocus.

 

[Speybee]

Remember, the natural configuration of a colony is to have stores above and away from the entrance and brood below and nearer the entrance. This is why a nadir of stores gets moved out of that box, if not taken by robbers or wasps for whom it is easy pickings being so close to the entrance

Thanks for your advice about robbing.

 

[pargyle]

The reason I think they were congested is that last week when we had muggy weather the bees were slightly bearding like a wee couple inch Moustache, outside the hive, which I had never seen before.
When I looked from afar I could see them all bunched up together on the mesh floor filling the entrance so to speak.

In that muggy weather mine were all over the landing board and halfway up the front of the hive - they are big healthy colonies and I'm on 14 x 12 and most hives had two supers at least on top ... so plenty of space but I think they like to sit outside on those muggy nights - not something you should read too much into. JBM's advice is good ... it's the best and safest option.

 

[Speybee]

I have just finished doing as was suggested by Drex and JBM so that’s them sorted out as I got into a right fankle as they were vicious little sods this afternoon.
Thanks for all your advice, appreciated.

 

[Speybee]

In that muggy weather mine were all over the landing board and halfway up the front of the hive - they are big healthy colonies and I'm on 14 x 12 and most hives had two supers at least on top ... so plenty of space but I think they like to sit outside on those muggy nights - not something you should read too much into. JBM's advice is good ... it's the best and safest option.

I’m just a hobby beekeeper who fell into this and now hooked by beekeeping, because I wanted to increase my fruit and vegetable crops

No, leave as is, brood, empty shallow,full shallow, next month take away QX and empty shallow and leave the full shallow for winter stores, if you have ivy in your area I doubt you'll need to feed much more. In the spring the queen will be laying in the shallow, make sure she's down in the brood chamber then replace the QX

 

[GuyNir]

I’m just a hobby beekeeper who fell into this and now hooked by beekeeping, because I wanted to increase my fruit and vegetable crops

like your hive stand

 

[pargyle]

I’m just a hobby beekeeper who fell into this and now hooked by beekeeping, because I wanted to increase my fruit and vegetable crops

Most of us on here are the same .. you either become totally addicted or give up fairly quickly... the bees do make a huge difference to fruit crops with their pollination - as long as the weather is sufficiently fine for them to get to the blossom in spring. On Speyside ... one year in five perhaps ? I think they grow so many raspberries up there because the plants are in blossom so late they have a good chance of getting well pollinated ... and I think the scots invented autumn fruiting raspberries as they flower in the only two weeks where you have a better than even chance there won't be wind and rain !

Very creative hive stand by the way ... I just love repurposing things ...