Double nuc

[blackcavebees]

Been out in the workshop again tonight ...

Working on a National brood box footprint, insulated inside with kingspan and added inside skin of 5mm ply. Plan is to split internally with 12mm ply thus making 2 nucs (3 Hoffman frames + frame feeder each). Planning to make floor with one exit at back, one at front. Double crown board, and using national roof over both.

Questions? Is 12 mm ply divider enough to stop bees from one side picking up scent of others?
Any other drawbacks to having 2 nuc colonies in one box?

Thanks

Stephen

 

[Teemore]

You could probably get away with thinner ply for the divider Stephen - I bought a poly nuc a while back which came with a correx divider. As long as there are no gaps between the two compartments it should work OK.

 

[oliver90owner]

Depends on what your intende use is.

Some say there is a risk, overwintering, of the bees clustering either side of the divider and perishing by getting isolated from their stores. Doesn't sem to be a great risk if this is basically a poly unit.

I use the MB nucs with a divider for 2 x three frame nucs in the summer. No problems at all with a 5mm divider. So mine are somewhat equivalent to yours, but considerably larger, in a smaller footprint. My feeder could be at the end.

I might enquire: Why, unless you are proposing dual entry (under and side), what benefit there is in the National footprint idea?

 

[blackcavebees]

Thanks guys

Going for national footprint for standardisation for me, as building a lot of kit over winter and wanted to be able to utilise roofs, floors etc. The 2 nucs within a standard, but insulated, box size, meant I can have 3 frames + frame feeder or 4 frames plus top feeder, and I can wack an empty super on as eke later so my mating hives I'm building will each fit over the feed hole for uniting

Open to suggestions on entrances ... Is 2 side by side not inviting drifting? I thought I would make a custom national floor with one entrance at front, offset to left and same a t back (other left dear ), then I can also use the floor with back door closed later on full box temporary, and means there are no holes for entrance in the brood body itself.

I'll post a pic in a few minutes. This is only a work in progress and not the finished box

 

[blackcavebees]

Guts of insulated double nat nuc

Work in progress - the insulated body

 

[itma]

A few points

- does the nat roof fit over that big box?
I'm doing exactly this sort of thing with sale-bought P's poly (and roof!)

- make up half-size coverboards, so you can open each side individually! And give them a beespace frame, so they sit flat and bee-tight without the need for the frametops to be absolutely clean. While you shouldn't need a clearer/escape hole, a close-able feeder hole is probably a good thing to incorporate on each of them.

- the divider board is probably most conveniently sized to be level with the top of the box sides (think of the coverboards), and to descend below the box into the floorspace. I 'feel' it would be better to meet the floor, even if not completely tight to it - though no less than Terry Clare assured me that it doesn't actually need to go below the bottom of the box. Seems 'safer' to me to have a complete division ...
I know of someone who routed out the hive sides to slot in his division board. I'm just going to try some hot-melt glue to secure the thing (as well as the cut-down frame rails). I shan't be too strenuous about levering the frames together really tightly!

- you might make up a special multi-entrance floor, but its easier to simply use a standard floor and a twin entrance (one each end) entrance restrictor block! That gets you a mesh floor (should you want it), which incidentally also gives you a slightly 'soft' seal against your divider board ... There is an argument that nucs being about brooding, they should be as warm as possible - leading towards a solid floor or a closed-up mesh floor.

 

[rolande]

Backcavebees, if you've not already seen it you may find the video in the following link well worth watching for some useful background information from a man who runs hundreds of these divided boxes.

Michael Palmer, The Sustainable Apiary, Part 2.

http://vimeo.com/23191815

 

[alanf]

Work in progress - the insulated body

If that's the Kingspan edges exposed, some bees can excavate any exposed surface. It's the foam you have to seal with tape or ply. Foil faces are relatively bee proof, lining with ply might extend the life but it's not needed. Th0rnes and some other suppliers make a similar box under the 'twinstock' name if you want to check their basic design. There are some diagrams of alternative layouts on Dave Cushman's site http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/natsplit.html. All the examples I've seen or read about have entrances as far away from each other as practical. I adapted a two nuc box from sale bought components last spring, it's not sophisticated or difficult.

My box actually started as a demaree cedar deep brood that I adapted to make two 5 frame mating nucs.

* A spare 'crown board' had a few inches of batten pivoted in two opposite sides to make entrances and covered feed/clearing holes (ice cream tub plastic).

* Raised the top lip of the brood box to make top bee space with a pinned batten around the rim - the two 'half size' crown boards can then be plain sheets of ply. Those ply sheets had a feed hole at about 2/3 of the length so two 'rapid' feeders could fit in a super box on top. A couple of screws holding the adapted 'crown' board on the bottom of the deep brood box as a solid floor made it easier to handle than a loose floor when you're lifting it.

* A screw each end fixed a partition down the middle - 12mm chipboard was what I had and didn't need any other lip at the top to allow the flat crown board to sit on it. Thinner dividers might need a top batten to make it bee proof if the board isn't placed perfectly. The partition needs shaped blocks or sealant to fill the bottom bee space at the sides unless you're really into intricate jigsawing.

Pros are the minimal woodwork and time to adapt and it's even quicker to revert to a standard brood box and crown board. If it sits in an existing hive stack it gets some warmth from the bottom and uses the same roof. Supers can be added to the colony underneath without too much disruption. I have not tried over winter, but inherently warmer than an isolated thin ply nuc box and it can take a full width slab of insulation on top. Against is that there is some lifting in operation and you can't hang about inspecting the colony underneath. Mark or put a coloured drawing pin in the front as reassurance that's it's the right way round. Also plan to rehouse both sides at the same time, shaking out one side isn't practical.

There are suggestions elsewhere that drift can be a problem using multiple boxes for mating, but I didn't find that. Brother Adam and Wedmore used them as mating nucs for years. I put mating problems this year down to the weather as single nucs fared no better.

 

[beebreeder]

Don't bother insulating it, its wasting at least a frame space each side. The bees are more than able to control the temperature, I have these in both standard and 14x 12 format, no insulation and an eke above for feeding. Thebees will happlily overwinter without any special precautions other than keeping mice out.

 

[alanf]

Michael Palmer, The Sustainable Apiary, Part 2.

Interesting link, thanks.

 

[itma]

Working on a National brood box footprint, insulated inside with kingspan and added inside skin of 5mm ply. ...

- does the nat roof fit over that big box?
I'm doing exactly this sort of thing with sale-bought P's poly (and roof!)

Misread initially what you were doing. (Sorry!)
If you started with a CWynneJones poly nat brood, (not entirely homemade, and not P's) you'd still get the nat exterior dimensions ...

I'm happy to try with P's poly super (and roof to cover the 500mm square box) to be a twin poly mating nuc ... using standard shallow frames.

 

[fatshark]

I've got bees wintering (well, autumning) in an uninsulated version of this sort of box. Mine is permanently divided with a 5mm ply board that extends into a groove in the floor. The latter is an old butchered solid floor with two mesh panels cut into it. Entrances are front left and back right i.e. as far away as possible from each other ... simple rotating wedges like are used on a Snelgrove Board.

I originally had separate crown boards but got sick and tired of them shifting about or squashing bees during inspections. I now use a simple thick poly sheet held onto the top of the central divider with drawing pins. I lift one side at a time, fold it back and hold it down with a hive tool. Works very well. Each side of the sheet has a small 3-sided 'flap' cut into it which can be folded back, held down with tape and used to feed fondant or syrup (in a doughnut feeder).

I'm sure most of these ideas were lifted directly from Dave Cushman's site.

 

[blackcavebees]

Thanks guys for all the feedback, very helpful indeed and some good links, interesting stuff.

Completed the insulated double nuc box, just to finish floor and covers. It will be useful and should work well, and ended up costing me £3.60 as most of stuff was from a skip. However, I think the next one will be adapted from a MM deal national brood box with rabbits cut for divider(s) as in Dave Cushman's site with no insulation. I like the guy from Vermont's idea of over wintering them on top of production colonies, but we'll see. I'll post another pic or two later to show the finished article. On reflection, might have a good R value but too much work even if getting the materials as scrap when you can buy a wooden brood box for under £12 and adapt.

 

[blackcavebees]

some pics

Floor: adapted a solid floor I had made for a bait hive with snelgrove type entrances back right and front left, added central divider.

Body: all poly insulaion sealed off and 12mm divider installed (ok a bit thick but you've gotta take what's in the skip!)

Double crown boards (no pic) 12mm ply with off set feedhole for yellow nuc feeders (kept plug from holesaw and made a cover of feed holes when not in use)

As said in previous post, and as others have said, will be making the next one just out of wooden national brood body with divider

 

[Finman]

Work in progress - the insulated body

Seems very good. Splended.

But actually against wall frames need more gap. In the picture you see its only half wide gap becaus opposite frames shoulders are missing.

What is that wider panel along sides?

Use solid bottom to nucs. Then put in there upper entrance and a plastic tube into the hole 1,5 cm opening.

Small nucs do not stand mesh floor.

 

[Tom Bick]

Nice job, salvaged materials and individuality hope it works well for you. I don’t know if you are intending to have two separate crown boards so you only disturb one half at a time.

 

[blackcavebees]

Seems very good. Splended.

But actually against wall frames need more gap. In the picture you see its only half wide gap becaus opposite frames shoulders are missing.

If you zoom in there is actually a lip on wall frames giving beespace both outside frames each side

What is that wider panel along sides?

If you look back in post to first picture, it was of naked brood body with insulation installed and plywood inside that. They are wood shims to prevent bees accessing poly insulation ends, same on bottom to seal

Use solid bottom to nucs. Then put in there upper entrance and a plastic tube into the hole 1,5 cm opening.

I had thought of cutting hole for mesh, but thought better to keep it solid. Entrances are front and back in floor. Do I need a upper entrance as well?
Small nucs do not stand mesh floor.

Thanks, Stephen

 

[Finman]

.
I do not know in your climate, is the upper hole essential during winter.
Hivemaker knows better. He has solid floors.

In my hives it is essential, because it moves respiration moisture
out.

In same meaning some there use match sticks or feeding holes open and move the moisture up to loft.
But that is wrong place to moisture.

 

[Little John]

I've just posted about the use of polystyrene as a beehive insulation material on:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21285&page=2
which may be of interest ...