does the date on apigard really matter ?

[MuswellMetro]

No!

The first response should have been along the lines that treatment may not be effective if the medication is beyond it's 'sell-by' date or has been stored outside the suggested max/min temperature parameters.

It's a sorry world we've become if you can't see the difference!

it was almost that by RAB in post 2

Your choice. Unlikely to be injurious to the bees if you have stored it well and it looks OK. Might not be so effective dependent on a few things I may not be aware of. I'm not sure what the full life span to the 'use before' date is; If 6 months or less, think hard but if three or four years it will likely be OK if stored well by the supplier and yourself. I've seen it out of date and still on the shop shelf at full price before now.

RAB

the conversation followed on after DRstitson raised the EU directive Tongue in cheek, anyway it is not the SBI or RBI i would be worried about but some Jobs worth Enviromental or Trading standards officer doing a tick box exercise on your honey

 

[REDWOOD]

I'am not sure if I would agree with above, would you take tablets that was out of date, I remember a science lesson in school looking at the chemical changes in tablets over time. You must ask yourself why are the sell by dates printed on products, there is a difference in use by dates.

 

[mbc]

No!

The first response should have been along the lines that treatment may not be effective if the medication is beyond it's 'sell-by' date or has been stored outside the suggested max/min temperature parameters.

Dont be soft!
The active ingredient is thymol, which wont escape a sealed foil container, so theres as much in an out of date packet as there is in a new one.
I've seen some in date apiguard which looks as if the gel has separated a bit, but given a good stir it will be just as effective.
VITA make out the gel is some magic slow release agent but its really just thymol mixed with agar.
I found an opened big tub of the stuff which I'd misplaced a good few years ago which has a bit left and though its separated a bit, given a good stir I've every confidence it will be just as effective.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Honey is food.

I don't really see anything wrong with pointing out to a new beekeeper that treatment records are important, especially if they mightn't have done a beginners course or found the online sources that tell them the rules.

and inspectors have never ever asked me about records

My RBI was the one who first told me about the requirement to keep these records and pointed me towards the forms that can be downloaded from Beebase. He recommended filling them in for everything other than food, including hive sanitisers and so-called fumigants that are sometimes used for getting rid of varroa.

The worst case scenario would be that something goes wrong soon after using a bought-in treatment. It could mean a bad batch, which could lead to a product recall and maybe even warnings not to use the honey. But that can only happen if the information has been recorded.

 

[Moggs]

Honey is food.

Exactly! How many would complain bitterly and expect retribution if say, Tesco took such a casual regard to what ended up in their cornflakes (hmm I have just reminded myself of the horsemeat affair - but look at the fall-out from that)!

OK - thymol may not be such a huge risk - but the law is just that (it's not a suggestion for best practice). Why deliberately flout the Regulations?

 

[IBeeHere]

Had a bee inspector around to check the hives and was asked about hive treatment records, this happened 6 weeks ago in hampshire.
Never used any unlicenced or homebrew products, and do not expect I ever will, although chance of being prosicuted is low.
If any contamination of honey being sold did happen with treatments you have applied, and you had no records of what or when you applied them then you will more than likley be prosecuted, you will also need to recall all your honey you have supplied to anybody rather than a specific batch as you can not proove when contamination occured.

 

[oliver90owner]

The first response*should have been....

It was.

It is sorry world when people just cannot read the posts, interpret them and act upon them sensibly.

Do I throw away food one day out of date? Not necessarily.

The idiots of this world probably think the use by date on everything is sacrosanct, but I am old enough to know, for instance, that the EC butter mountain was around for years and there was so much left in long term storage that modern day use-by dates are just another blanket legislation to help and assist those that either wish to sell manky goods or the poor souls that are unable to think for themselves.

I use it with short-life goods, but even they may well be OK for a short time after the advised storage time. For foodstuffs with a long expiry date - I would not purchase them out of date but I may very well exceed the date if bought and then stored satisfactorily afterwards.

The same applies to any commodity. Some may become injurious and some may become ineffective. The laws do not make that distinction and these days there are a lot around who are unable to make any more distinction at all. Yes, some need wet nursing all their life and some can get by thinking for themselves.

 

[alanf]

The pack date is more relevant for some treatments than others. It is never 100% effective one day and useless or dangerous the next, and storage conditions are often more influential than actual date. Thymol based treatments with seals intact and usual household storage have a wide margin. I would happily use it for a period after the nominal date if I knew where it had been and there was no thymol smell before opening. The largest suppliers have even ncluded just expired thymol treatments in sales.

On the other hand I wouldn't use a premixed oxalic treatment unless it was really fresh, even if within the pack date. HMF levels rise in storage and hot sheds will accelerate that. I'd feel safer mixing my own as needed.

The letter of the legislation says medical treatments must be approved, within dates and recorded, But simple acids and naturally based extracts like thymol appear in unapproved products as hive cleaner or food supplement. The boundaries of what is included within the legislation as medical treatment is blurred. There are substances which are clearly medical but misused, clenbuterol for instance - used for horses that get into the food chain or deliberately misused to get leaner pork. That's where the legislation drive is coming from.

Bee inspectors take a pragmatic view, but can't stray from the official pronouncements. In conversation, the greater concern is misuse of treatments from elsewhere and the dangers to bees of home brewers applying doses off the scale. Examples are cattle miticides used on wooden sticks, a practice that has become frequent in some countries. If treatments are packaged and used as directed the date is a minor detail.

 

[Moggs]

As you wish. Whatever the reasoning offered up here, use of out-of-date treatments is forbidden under the Regs and there's no grey area there.

 

[itma]

There are different factors in play.

1/ does it cease to do "what it says on the tin"?
2/ does it become in some way harmful?
3/ do 1 or 2 happen the day after the printed date?
4/ in many cases the regs demand that a date be shown, even when that date has been arbitrarily chosen (as with honey's 'sell by' date).


Actual product safe & effective life usually depends on storage conditions, and if kept well inside the limits, things are generally both safe and effective beyond the date that the manufacturer guarantees it until.


Apiguard usage isn't an exact science. The pack sizes are not exactly matched to the national brood box, or 14x12, or double brood ...
Ambient air temperature inside the hive greatly affects its efficacy - hence some canny beeks use insulation when treating with the product. (Even cannier ones never take it off...) Hive ventilation (draughts) greatly alter the vapour concentration...
So the product variation between a pack straight off the production line and the day after its expiry is just one more variable that will affect the product's efficacy.
Unlike (say) Oxalic pre-prepared in syrup, I have no reason to suspect that the product becomes unsafe to use on expiry.

That said, it is clearly officially 'wrong' to use a product after its expiry date, and you shouldn't do it.
At about £6/hive treatment, its not going to be a make or break financial decision to use in-date product.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

As you wish. Whatever the reasoning offered up here, use of out-of-date treatments is forbidden under the Regs and there's no grey area there.

Hasn't the world turned into a sad and depressing place? Someone makes an arbitary use by date up and half the population treat it as gospel.
Seems to me the own consumption way escapes all this nonsense. However the "no treatment" brigade seem to have no need to concern themselves about recording or use by dates even if their colonies die out over a period.
As I said - sad!

 

[Reentrant]

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=309

Does that applies to Apiguard because it is an approved medicine, but not to all the other thymol-based "hive cleansers" that aren't approved?

 

[drstitson]

"the conversation followed on after DRstitson raised the EU directive Tongue in cheek"

far from tongue in cheek. deadly serious in fact. anyone selling to the public MUST follow the rules. and by "inspector" i was implying either FERA, local EH OR Trading Standards.

 

[BeeJayBee]

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=309

Does that applies to Apiguard because it is an approved medicine, but not to all the other thymol-based "hive cleansers" that aren't approved?

The leaflet names the treatments covered by the requirement to record purchase, use and disposal.

As I said earlier, our RBI recommends keeping careful records of everything other than food that's given to each colony.

If, for example, a colony dies soon after using a commercially sourced treatment or sanitiser it could be a bad batch, which would need to be recalled. Without batch numbers it would be impossible to track back.

... some Jobs worth Enviromental or Trading standards officer doing a tick box exercise on your honey

Good point!

But, from other threads, it would seem that some people are more concerned about being caught out using dishwasher-cleaned, recycled jars, than because of any extras that might actually end up in the honey!

 

[Moggs]

Hasn't the world turned into a sad and depressing place? Someone makes an arbitary use by date up and half the population treat it as gospel.
Seems to me the own consumption way escapes all this nonsense. However the "no treatment" brigade seem to have no need to concern themselves about recording or use by dates even if their colonies die out over a period.
As I said - sad!

Maybe you don't get it... The LAW says that you can't do it. If you do you are committing an offence. Not a question of sadness - it's a question of compliance. And I firmly believe that every responsible beekeeper should do the utmost to comply with the laws that regulate their hobby/ business. Your standards may differ of course.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Maybe you don't get it... The LAW says that you can't do it. If you do you are committing an offence. Not a question of sadness - it's a question of compliance. And I firmly believe that every responsible beekeeper should do the utmost to comply with the laws that regulate their hobby/ business. Your standards may differ of course.

As I said - sad!

 

[richardbees]

I've read the above posts with interest, some do appreciate the point I was making.

An example is that I used to share the occasional cigarette break with "Building Control Officers" at a London Council and conversation occasionaly strayed to the philosophical e.g:

Building Regulations require "glass insets in internal doors be of toughened or laminated glass"

is the correct answer fo "why not use cheap window glass?"

A) to prevent a high possibility of severe or fatal domestic accidents caused by breakage

or

B) To comply with Building Regulations

 

[kristin..]

Law pft....... I was looking for some one to say .... This and that will .... Law don't matter + I swair honey never gos off that has a date... So don't go off ur heads + I don't sell honey also my honey wonte be in hive when treatmeant starts + I'm part of no group... Iv read loads of books every one has difrent ways of looking arfter there's ? So it would be stupid to foolow one old school bee keepper. As times ante the same as 30 years ago if u don't change year on year u will loose ur bees

 

[oliver90owner]

When one reads the FERA document, there is an acceptance that some beeks will use unauthorised treatments.

Very simply, if residues are found in the honey you may well be in trouble. If you have used only authorised treatments and made the appropriate records, there may be some mitigation, it seems.

No point in complaining if authorised treatments are applied inappropriately ( eg Apistan applied during a flow).

So where does that leave us? How many apply oxalic acid? Lots of course! Thymol is no different. Treating with Apiguard which has technically expired would simply not be accepted in mitigation, but as there can be no more active ingredient, it could be argued that it would have to be other residues in the honey that would be the problem.

I use an alternative thymol delivery method to the apiguard route, but I ensure that I do not apply it inappropriately. The dose is comparable to apiguard and I am confident my honey would contain no nasty residues. I accept that if any of my honey were checked and found contaminated, I would be for the high jump.

For instance, apiguard comes in only one pack size. Splitting it in half for nuc treatment might not be
appropriate for some - believe me, after watching this forum I can suggest that with confidence! So I am fairly sure that the apiguard instructions are not totally watertight legally if , as I recall, that advice is given on the web.

Will I be using the thymol I bought last year (supplied by a beekeeping supplier for beekeeping purposes)?

I will, as there is no expiry date on the bag. FERA and our bee inspectors must be pragmatic about the battle against varroa or there would have been lots of cases in court long before now.

Of course it is not illegal to just not treat. That is up to the beek and if the bees die due to this it is the beek's fault - so would said beek be taken to court for this? Never heard of this either.

Let us all be practical and act appropriately. Thus I stand by my initial response. I cannot be held responsible for outright incitement to break the law in this instance. If you consume food far beyond the 'best before', 'sell by' or 'use by' date and become ill because of it, would you expect to be hauled before a court? Now, if you were to feed someone else with it, you could well be...

I believe the Austrians have, or used to have, a legal requirement to purchase food supplies for emergencies and these had to be returned and replaced at intervals, by law.

A stupid system as they could have included reserves which would store without deterioration. Tins come to mind; they used to last years when the steel cans were properly tined on the interior, but these days the shellac coating is nowhere near as long-lasting. Would I use a tin of baked beans just out of date - you bet I would.

 

[user 6228]

According to the rules you can't take home used tea bags from work and put them in your compost heap, unless you have a waste movement paper work and you are an authorised disposer of industrial waste.
Some of the rules are not that well thought out. This is not hypothetical