Dealing with brood frames full of random drone cells

[E&MBees]

I had to shake out a queen less colony today, which had laying workers. There were drone cells throughout the brood box including amongst the stores. I have rebuilt the hive using fresh foundation and frames with only stores. Any bees that were able to return have, and I have introduced a queen in a cage. Initial reactions from the bees were very positive.

My question is, what do I do with the frames that are full of drones? At the moment I have put them in an empty nuc box because I didn’t know what to do! There are no bees to care for them. The frames also have a considerable amount of capped and uncapped honey on them too.

Having some drawn frames would be useful, but how do I clean them up?

Many thanks,
Emily

 

[pargyle]

Capped drone cells ? if they are and it is warm enough they may emerge but what will happen to them .. anybody's guess - they will probably find their way into other colonies .. drones do tend to drift.

Also .. what was the point of shaking out the colony and then putting a box where they were and then introduce a queen into that box ...?

You would normally shake a colony out because you don't want that colony any more for whatever reason - usually laying workers.. you take the box away so they have nowhere to return to - the bees are forced to beg their way into your other hives (if you have any).

What you have done may not lead to success ,,,,you could well find that your laying workers that have returned to the hive continue to lay and the new queen you have introduced may not be accepted.

If the entrance to the Nuc is open, there are stores in there and no guard bees to defend them .. they will get robbed out as soon as other bees get wind of them ...


All a bit mixed up I'm afraid ..

 

[E&MBees]

Capped drone cells ? if they are and it is warm enough they may emerge but what will happen to them .. anybody's guess - they will probably find their way into other colonies .. drones do tend to drift.

Also .. what was the point of shaking out the colony and then putting a box where they were and then introduce a queen into that box ...?

All a bit mixed up I'm afraid ..

You would normally shake a colony out because you don't want that colony any more for whatever reason - usually laying workers.. you take the box away so they have nowhere to return to - the bees are forced to beg their way into your other hives (if you have any).

What you have done may not lead to success ,,,,you could well find that your laying workers that have returned to the hive continue to lay and the new queen you have introduced may not be accepted.

If the entrance to the Nuc is open, there are stores in there and no guard bees to defend them .. they will get robbed out as soon as other bees get wind of them ...

I only did what I was told to do. They are definitely drone cells as they protrude beyond the surface of the drawn foundation.

 

[pargyle]

I only did what I was told to do.

Who told you to do this ?

 

[E&MBees]

Who told you to do this ?

Other beekeepers in the area.

What do I do now? I’m certain the hive was q-. The new queen, (I’m not sure if she is mated as I panicked and shook out the nuc she was in, I thought it was q- too because I couldn’t find her and there were no eggs) is currently caged in the hive. All the bees got muddled up. The hive is populated by the bees that were able to return. There were bees left on the ground were I had shaken them this evening.

It seems I’ve messed up.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Who told you to do this ?

Probably the same fool who believes laying workers can't fly

 

[pargyle]

Other beekeepers in the area.

Sorry ... You've been given some duff advice ... I'm not sure what the best way out of your predicament now is ...

What colonies do you have apart from the one you've shook out and are trying to requeen and a nuc full of drones ?

 

[E&MBees]

Sorry ... You've been given some duff advice ... I'm not sure what the best way out of your predicament now is ...

What colonies do you have apart from the one you've shook out and are trying to requeen and a nuc full of drones ?

I have a queen right National hive. She is laying well, 7 frames of BIAS. Stores and a super.

 

[pargyle]

OK .. don't panic .. it's not your fault - there's a lot of beekeepers out there that don't know what they are doing but speak with authority as though they do..

I'm just going to digest what you now have and think about it ... JBM. Enrico and Dani might also have a think.

Whatever has been done the bees will often sort themselves out... it's usually in spite of what we beekeepers have done to them !

Any beekeeper who tells you they have never got things wrong is either lying or doesn't keep bees !

 

[pargyle]

Hi Emily,

Don't panic ... we need to think about this and a bit more information may help.

1. Where did the queen that you have caged in the 'shook out' hive originate - you said she was 'in a nuc' .. was it a queen you were rearing from a split or did she come from somewhere else ?

2. Was that queen laying when she was in the Nuc ?

3. Are you hoping to have two or more colonies to take into winter and is that what you would like to acheive this year or do you want to have some honey from your bees (You may not be able to achieve both with the situation you have at present.

 

[E&MBees]

Hi Emily,

Don't panic ... we need to think about this and a bit more information may help.

1. Where did the queen that you have caged in the 'shook out' hive originate - you said she was 'in a nuc' .. was it a queen you were rearing from a split or did she come from somewhere else ?

2. Was that queen laying when she was in the Nuc ?

3. Are you hoping to have two or more colonies to take into winter and is that what you would like to acheive this year or do you want to have some honey from your bees (You may not be able to achieve both with the situation you have at present.

Thanks for your help. In answer to your questions:

1) The queen that is now in the ‘shook hive’ came from the nuc. She came from the q+ hive as a frame of eggs. The bees in the nuc raised her. They only produced one QC, which she emerged from. When the ‘shook hive’ swarmed over Easter, I transferred one of the capped QC that I found to the nuc just in case. This failed, but because there were quite a lot of bees, I transferred a frame of eggs instead of putting the bees back in the hive.

All the bees I currently have in the apiary originate from the laying queen that I have in the q+ hive.

2) was she laying - I’m not sure. I panicked so didn’t look closely enough at the frames. They then got muddled up in the confusion.

3) I would like to be able to take two colonies on into the winter. I was very lucky that the swarm that I received last year made it through, but you never know what may happen. If I get a jar of honey, that would be nice, but having healthy strong bees is important.

Thanks again.

 

[pargyle]

Well .. I think what I would do is the following:

1. My priority would be to get a couple of strong colonies going. You already have one queen right hive that is strong and thriving so you are halfway there. It's how you get to the other one that is the problem.

2. I would, almost, be prepared to write off the colony/hive you have a caged queen in that sounds like it's made up from the bees you shook out .. you don't appear to have any confidence in the queen you have caged up in there - looking back, it appears that she was not laying when she was in the nuc.

3. I would seriously consider buying in a queen. If you are prepared to buy in a queen I would get one on order .. when she arrives I would start a nucleus from your strong queenright hive and use your bought in queen to head up the nucleus. Make sure the nucleus is not sited anywhere near the 'shook out' colony.

4. If your frames of drone brood are still about somewhere at that stage put them with the 'shook out' colony to free up the nucleus box they are/were in to use for your 'new' Nucleus colony.

5. At that point you have a full colony with a laying queen, a Nucleus with a laying queen and a box with what's left of your shook out bees and the frames of drone brood with a queen in a cage.

6. If the queen in the cage looks remotely like she has been accepted and you think she may be viable, I would buy or make up a proper push in queen cage (see the thread on push in queen cages) and put her in the push in cage on an area of frame where there are empty cells and some stores. If she starts to lay in those cells you might think about releasing her and see what happens with this colony. (I personally think the likelihood is that this is a lost cause).

7. If she does not start laying in the push in cage cut your losses and squish her, then do a proper shake out of what's left in that hive .. take the hive and the drawn frames well away from the apiary after you have shook the bees out and make sure there is nothing left where the hive was. The bees that were in there can take their chances and will beg their way into the hive and the nucleus you have left.

8. The drawn frames are valuable - keep them safe in the hive you have taken away - seal the hive up and (if you can) spray them with Dipel or Certan to keep them safe from wax moth infestation until you need to use them. If there was still some capped drone brood on any of the frames cut it out and dispose of it .. otherwise the brood will rot in the cells - the drone brood is not a great loss.

9. Once your bought in queen is established in the Nuc and the colony has built up you can transfer them to the 'spare' box you now have and use the drawn out frames you have stored.

10. At that point you have two, hopefully, strong colonies that you should get some honey from and with a bit of luck will be two nice colonies to eventually take into winter.

I'm sure there are variations on this plan and perhaps there are other better ideas or modifications to the plan. It's what I would do ... there is always more than one way out of a given situation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Crikey! What a muddle.
I think Philip’s solution seems doable.

 

[E&MBees]

Thank you for your suggestions. I will see what I can do. There is so much conflicting advice out there. It’s hard to know what to follow or not when you’re a beginner.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is done is done - shaking out the laying workers was a sensible move - what you were advised to do afterwards was not.
One good thing - shook out bees tend to accept a new queen easier on introduction.
Let's hope that the queen is mated (you said there was brood in the nuc?) if the bees were protecting her on the floor it may well be the case.
you do need drawn comb in there though not foundation so the 'new' queen has room to lay and it will also make it easier for the bees to accept her.
I wouldn't bother with a press in cage in this case, just sit back and wait for them to release her - when you go in in a day or two to check, if they have, don't inspect just close up and give them a week to settle, then give them another week or two to see what develops, nothing to lose there really.
If you are toying with Phil's suggestion of buying in a mated queen (UK bred queens are now online) then crack on with it, forget the shake out 'colony' for now - let them stew in their own juices. Make up a nuc from the strong colony as Phil advised and look at building that up.
If in a few weeks the shake out colony has done good - bonus! you will have three colonies, if you don't want three then marry the queen to the nearest gatepost and unite with one of the others at the end of the season.
If the shakeout colony is a dead loss, then again, queen>gatepost and shake the rest out in front of the other hives..................and walk away
If you cannot find the dud queen then just shake them out away from the other hives (just a few yards, or the other side of the garden) preferably into some shrubbery, brambles, whatever (I always used to shake out my failed nucs into a patch of sage and ground hugging oregano I had near the greenhouse

 

[pargyle]

Yes ... I think JBM's suggestion and endorsement is good advice. You have decisions to make now ..

If you don't want to buy in a queen you could just take another nuc off your strong colony and let them make their own queen but the £30 or so that a queen will cost you will be more than repaid for in the longer term. You can be certain that you have a laying queen and a colony that will build up quickly - you could well even get a few jars of honey from both hives and be well placed for overwintering.

 

[beeno]

Hi Emily,
I would keep "the shook out hive" as an experiment "wait and see what happens". I certainly would not buy a queen for that rabble. You have one hive that is strong and it will probably try to swarm at some point this season. That's the time for increase from a good swarm cell. Do not use a nuc to start QC from eggs as it is a great chance of getting a scrub queen, but by all means put a mature QC into one populated enough with nurse bees to keep it warm. Keep calm and carry on. x

 

[E&MBees]

Hi Emily,
I would keep "the shook out hive" as an experiment "wait and see what happens". I certainly would not buy a queen for that rabble. You have one hive that is strong and it will probably try to swarm at some point this season. That's the time for increase from a good swarm cell. Do not use a nuc to start QC from eggs as it is a great chance of getting a scrub queen, but by all means put a mature QC into one populated enough with nurse bees to keep it warm. Keep calm and carry on. x

Thanks.

The strong hive has already swarmed this year. I caught them and rehoused. It’s the hive that they vacated that I’m in a muddle with!

 

[pargyle]

. Do not use a nuc to start QC from eggs as it is a great chance of getting a scrub queen, but by all means put a mature QC into one populated enough with nurse bees to keep it warm. Keep calm and carry on. x

Rubbish - There is nothing wrong with raising a queen from a frame of eggs .. scrub queens only come when a colony only has ageing larvae from which to raise a queen from. Where do you think a mature QC starts out ?

In Emily's situation I would still recommend buying in a queen .. but as a means to get ahead of the game ... not because I would worry about raising a queen from scratch.

 

[beeno]

If it is in a nuc it is. In large colony with plenty of nurse bee it is ok. Laying worker colonies are notoriously difficult to requeen? True or False.