Constructive (Condenser) Hive

[TooBee...]

I know I'm sticking my head above the parapet here, you know asking a question (again) about an old bee hive in the bee hive section (sarc.) but here goes...

I came across this book, if you go to page 34 you'll see the drawing that I'm going to reference.

www.
biobees
.com/library/general_beekeeping/beekeeping_books_articles/ConstructiveBeekeeping_EdClarke.pdf

Basically the author (Ed Clarke) says that you need to allow Condensation to occur on the wall only, to help the bees to reduce the water content of the nectar and to provide a source of water inside the hive for them to add it back to the honey to feed on.

I Do Not want to get into an aggressive debate on Condensation inside the Hive, etc.

But I am puzzled at the drawing, does anyone understand how the Lid is supposed to work, fit ontop of the Hive?

Is it supposed to form a gap above the top frames and over and around the top of the top box? Is the idea to allow condensation to form on the slightly isolated (from the hive body) outer gap? It appears to be resting on a handle running around the exterior of the hive. It's a most perplexing drawing which doesn't explain much to me even after reading the description.

And before I get attacked (like last time) for trying to talk about an old fashioned hive design, I am interested in the building / design of hives and also on their history / evolution, this is more of an academic exercise than anything.

 

[Walrus]

There is something on it here:
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.p...unjp1urrl02v5&topic=44877.msg386892#msg386892

quote from Robo: "Ed Clark designed his hives so that condensation happened in the overhang of his covers."

i.e the space between the cleat, the outside of the hive walls and the insides of the cover that hangs down.

Anyway, it obviously didn't catch on, suggesting that it may not have been such a great idea after all. Are you going to try it?!

 

[oliver90owner]

Forget it. If bees have nectar that they need to convert to honey, why wouldn’t they just use the nectar? Ever seen a hive with a soaking interior in the foraging season? No. Neither has anyone else, I would suggest.

Only in the winter (bees clustered and most certainly not collecting nectar) does condensation need to occur on the walls of the hive rather than the ceiling (where it could drip onto the cluster).

Seems like the fellow was not a real beekeeper, to me - if this is typical of his writings.

 

[TooBee...]

Hi
thanks for that clarification; it's just a strange concept I wasn't sure if I was understanding it right.

I'm very tempted to try it out on a single hive and see how it compares, all I would need to do is make a lid extra wide: However here in Ireland I doubt the Poster called Robo, in that link you kindly provided, would be able to get any condensation on the inside walls of his hive, according to the info. extracted from the below websites (the first one takes a few minutes to work out but it's very good).

https://www.ubakus.de/u-wert-rechner/?

Choose [for inside] "Western red cedar" , 25c , 75% (averages for inside hive)
then [for outside] 12c , 75% (averages for Ireland at night, worse during Winter)
and you will see that there is condensation INSIDE the hive.

Temps. & Humidity taken from here;

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Ireland/humidity-july.php

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Ireland/temperature-july.php

 

[TooBee...]

My comments are in bold for clarity

Forget it. If bees have nectar that they need to convert to honey, why wouldn’t they just use the nectar?

Because during Winter they don't have nectar, they need water to add to the honey, Ed Clarke is making the point that this water can come from the hive walls. The use of the condensation lid can aid in the curing of this nectar to honey during the summer

Ever seen a hive with a soaking interior in the foraging season? No. Neither has anyone else, I would suggest.

I think the point Ed Clarke was making has been missed; the bees will have to exert a considerable amount of energy reducing the humidity in their hive (Warre style absorbant lids are not effective enough, to have much of an effect), it's not unreasonable to assume that this necessity to reduce the humidity could impede their nectar gathering, there is evidence presented in his book to show that their brood rearing earlier in the season is impeded by nectar curing into honey.

Only in the winter (bees clustered and most certainly not collecting nectar) does condensation need to occur on the walls of the hive rather than the ceiling (where it could drip onto the cluster).

You've just agreed with him.

Seems like the fellow was not a real beekeeper, to me - if this is typical of his writings.

From my earlier Posts one can see that I did not understand the points fully that he was making, so I understand why you too (like me still) are a bit unsure.

 

[Finman]

.com/library/general_beekeeping/beekeeping_books_articles/ConstructiveBeekeeping_EdClarke.pdf

Basically the author (Ed Clarke) says that you need to allow Condensation to occur on the wall only, to help the bees to reduce the water content of the nectar and to provide a source of water inside the hive for them to add it back to the honey to feed on.

.

Such rubbish... There are no water droplets in the summer inside the hive.

And bees would use water on walls as drinking water!

If walls would be so wet in summer, wood will become rotten and mold would cover the walls.
.
.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Basically the author (Ed Clarke) says that you need to allow Condensation to occur on the wall only...

Where do you read that?

..., to help the bees to reduce the water content of the nectar...

I don't read that on those pages (i.e. that allowing condensation only on the walls will somehow reduce the water content of nectar faster than otherwise).

But okay, you don't want to discuss this, right?

But I am puzzled at the drawing, does anyone understand how the Lid is supposed to work, fit on top of the Hive? ... Is it supposed to form a gap above the top frames and over and around the top of the top box? ... It appears to be resting on a handle running around the exterior of the hive.

Yes, I think the only way this design can work is if there are handles all around the box. The lid then rests on these handles. The handles are positioned in such a way that the lid rests on the handles, so that there is beespace between the lid and the outer sides and the tops of the hive walls. So, yes to your question "Is it supposed to form a gap above the top frames and over and around the top of the top box".

(I don't see how the design could work if the handles were only on two sides of the boxes, because then two sides of the telescopic lid would have to fit tightly against the sides of the box and the bees will propolise it stuck to the box.)

If you use top beespace (like he seems to be using, i.e. the tops of the frames do not sit flush with the tops of the box), then you'd have to add a bit of a board to the inside of the lid to ensure that there isn't too much space above the frames. (This board should be slightly smaller than the inside dimensions of the hive, so that the bees can climb over the tops of the walls.)

On the other hand, if you use bottom beespace (like we do in the Netherlands, i.e. the tops of the frames are flush with the top edge of the box), then the lid will do fine, because the space between the frames and the lid would be the same as the space between the top of the hive walls and the lid above it.

Is the idea to allow condensation to form on the slightly isolated (from the hive body) outer gap?

I'm not sure where he expects the condensation to form, but this design does allow more area for condensation to form, without affecting the available walking room for the bees. I suspect that on a hot day, more condensation will form on the walls under the lid than on the walls of the lid itself, but that's a guess.

Quote from Robo: "Ed Clark designed his hives so that condensation happened in the overhang of his covers" i.e the space between the cleat, the outside of the hive walls and the insides of the cover that hangs down.

Yes, Robo seems to believe that Ed's hive was designed so that water would condensate only against the vertical part of the lid, but I don't think that that is what Ed was trying to achieve. Ed does not imply that his design would prevent water from forming on the insides of the hive itself, nor does it appear that that would be what Ed would have wanted to happen anyway.

If bees have nectar that they need to convert to honey, why wouldn’t they just use the nectar?

I think Ed is perfectly aware of that. The bees normally use the water from the nectar, and the water that they get from the nectar is sufficient for their needs. But not all bees get their water directly from the nectar. Some bees get their water via some other route: surplus water condensates against the hive walls in tiny quantities, where the bees drink it up.

But if you put ventilation holes at the top of your hive, less water will condensate in tiny amounts against the hive walls, which means that the bees will have less water (and particularly on days that they don't forage, they'll have to get water from another source, or... simply get by with less water, which I'm sure you are aware will have consequences for the health and growth of the colony.

Ever seen a hive with a soaking interior in the foraging season?

No-one said anything about soaking. We're talking about tiny amounts of condensate here.

Because during Winter they don't have nectar, they need water to add to the honey, Ed Clarke is making the point that this water can come from the hive walls.

Sorry, but I don't read this in those pages at all.

It is my impression that his hive design's main advantage comes from summer condensation, not winter condensation. Whether or not water condensates on the hive walls in winter is not really relevant to Ed's design.

In any case, the bees won't be able to get water from the hive walls in winter because the bees don't go anywhere near the hive walls in winter.

The use of the condensation lid can aid in the curing of this nectar to honey during the summer.

Yes. His point is that water condensates on all surfaces, and while that includes the hive walls, it also includes the insides of empty cells (and this can prevent the queen temporarily from laying in those cells). So, I interpret his point to be that if you provide more wall surface area for condensation, more nectar will cured at night (and more cells will remain dry enough for the queen to lay in them).

 

[ugcheleuce]

Ever seen a hive with a soaking interior in the foraging season?

Yes. Have you never had it? Lucky you.

Such rubbish... There are no water droplets in the summer inside the hive.

Some of my hives' walls were wet on the inside this summer, and last summer as well. Hives from which I got honey, by the way.

 

[ugcheleuce]

[deleted dupe]

 

[TooBee...]

Hi ugcheleuce

the key part of the book begins on page 19 "Evaporation", he is making the point that the bees have to evaporate the water off the nectar down to 20% to turn it into honey, so if 1.25 lbs of nectar is brought into the hive in one day, the bees have to evaporate about 1 lb of water off it (if the sugar in the nectar is about 20%) with this in mind he says on page 22, "A pound of water could be expelled from the hive in 10 hours if the bees could change all the air of the hive once a minute" an unlikely thing indeed... am I right about this???

The next key part of the book is on page 25, "Condensation", here he explains how the water in the air, from evaporation of the nectar should condense on the walls to aid in the curing of the nectar, otherwise the curing process would take much longer and the empty cells would be filled with curing nectar instead of brood during a strong nectar flow.

He then goes on to explain or claim that propolis helps in the condensation on the hive walls on page 28, "Propolis", "It is obvious that more condensation takes place on a hive lined with propolis than one where the wood is without a varnish".

I have wondered in the past, whenever I see nectar being ripened in the brood area, as opposed to the Supers, if the bees are slowing down the nectar gathering because they are creating too much moisture in the air from evaporating the water from the nectar, etc.

The only other way that we as beekeepers can do to reduce the humidity in the hive, which would aid with the evaporation process of nectar is to give ventilation, but then the bees will spend more time and energy into heating their hives.

Still the book has got me thinking, as has this thread, thanks for responding, it's helped to provoke a few new thoughts

 

[ugcheleuce]

The key part of the book begins on page 19, "Evaporation", where he is making the point that the bees have to evaporate the water off the nectar down to 20% to turn it into honey, so if 1.25 lbs of nectar is brought into the hive in one day, the bees have to evaporate about 1 lb of water off it...

I find old beekeeping books fascinating to read, but whenever the book is older than a couple of decades, we must ask ourselves what didn't the author know that we now know. The author assumes that his own knowledge is current, and he isn't likely to give us many clues about what aspects of then-current thinking may have changed decades into the future.

This book dates from 1918, and since beekeeping lore can take a while to be disseminated, we have have to ask ourselves: what didn't beekeepers in, say, 1925-30, know that we now know?

1.

Throughout my reading of this book I got the impression that the author believes that moisture is removed from nectar (to make honey) solely through evaporation. I ask myself: did Ed know that bees also remove moisture from the nectar by adding enzymes to it, and by altering the pH value, and by turning sucrose into glucose and fructose?

There is a telling comment on page 25: "even if the bees ripened all the honey by some process within themselves, as some have suggested...". Can we read this comment to mean that Ed didn't (at that time, i.e. 1918) believe that at least some of the ripening is done by some process within the bees that itself does not involve vanilla-type evaporation?

2.

Ed's explanation of how moisture is evaporated from the nectar is interesting, but I've never heard his argument before, but as I thought about it, I spotted some potential problems with it. He may well have a slight bit of a point, but he appears to believe that his explanation explains all of the evaporation.

His explanation (page 23) is basically this: Moisture evaporates from a liquid if the temperature of the surrounding air is lower than the temperature of the liquid, if the temperature difference is 12 °C or more. The nectar that bees regurgitate and "chew" in their mouths is the same temperature as the bee itself (since the nectar comes out of the bee), which Ed assumes is higher than that of the surrounding air. Thus, as the bee "chews" the relatively warm nectar, moisture evaporates from it into the relatively cool air.

Modern thinking (that you'll read in modern bee books) is that the bees mostly add enzymes during this "chewing" process.

Now here's a problem: Ed's belief that bees have a higher body temperature than the surrounding air is the type of error made by people who forget that bees are cold-blooded, i.e. they take on the temperature of the ambient air (unless they heat the air themselves).

Bees keep the hive temperature at around 35 °C, and how do they do it? They heat their own bodies... and I wonder to what temperature do the bees heat up themselves to accomplish a hive temperature of 35 °C (does anyone here know the answer?). Given that the bees are fully in control of the movement of air in the loose cluster, I assume it isn't much more than 35 °C (and unlikely 45-50 °C, as Ed's bees would have to have been to make his argument work).

3.

We know (and Ed knew) what the moisture content of nectar is because we (or rather: scientists) have weighed nectar in flowers. We can't weigh the nectar as it arrives at the hive, but we can weigh it while it is still in the flower. Ed assumes that if nectar is 80% moisture in the flower, then the nectar is still 80% moisture by the time the nectar arrives at the bee hive, despite having been transported for 30-60 minutes in the bee's honey stomach.

4.

There is another place in the book where you can see old beekeeping lore vs what we now know, although this has little to do with evaporation. At around page 38 and further, Ed shows that he believes that bee hives have a much higher temperature inside, in winter, than we now know they actually have, and he argues wonderfully for his point, even though he's wrong.

 

[Finman]

Yes. Have you never had it? Lucky you.



Some of my hives' walls were wet on the inside this summer, and last summer as well. Hives from which I got honey, by the way.

And water was drilling onto floor.... And out of entrance...

My hive walls are dry. I have poly and wooden boxes. I see when wood is wet, or plastic.

 

[oliver90owner]

1.25 >>>>>0.25 from nectar to honey? What carp! Not even bothered to do the maths.

Just demonstrates how stupid that author seemed to be!

The author has no credibility, IMO.

 

[ugcheleuce]

1.25 >>>>>0.25 from nectar to honey? What carp! Not even bothered to do the maths.

If you believe this math is wrong, tell us what is the correct math?

Nectar = 84% water (at the flower), honey = 20% water, therefore to turn 1000 g of nectar into honey (i.e. 200 g), the bees have to remove 800 g of water from it. The math seems simple enough. [P.S. this information is from Ed's book, but it's broadly in agreement with modern beekeeping lore as well.]

I suppose the big question is: how much honey do the bees add to the hive per 24 hours? Estimates vary by locality, but it is said that during peak nectar flows bees can add 500-2500 g of honey to the hive per day. If we assume it's 500 g, then it means that the bees would have gathered 3000 g of nectar in those 24 hours and will have had to somehow get rid of 2500 g of water in those 24 hours, from a volume of, say, 60-80 litres.

Do you disagree with this math?

 

[user 6228]

I
1.

Throughout my reading of this book I got the impression that the author believes that moisture is removed from nectar (to make honey) solely through evaporation. I ask myself: did Ed know that bees also remove moisture from the nectar by adding enzymes to it, and by altering the pH value, and by turning sucrose into glucose and fructose?

There is a telling comment on page 25: "even if the bees ripened all the honey by some process within themselves, as some have suggested...". Can we read this comment to mean that Ed didn't (at that time, i.e. 1918) believe that at least some of the ripening is done by some process within the bees that itself does not involve vanilla-type evaporation?

2.

Ed's explanation of how moisture is evaporated from the nectar is interesting, but I've never heard his argument before, but as I thought about it, I spotted some potential problems with it. He may well have a slight bit of a point, but he appears to believe that his explanation explains all of the evaporation.

His explanation (page 23) is basically this: Moisture evaporates from a liquid if the temperature of the surrounding air is lower than the temperature of the liquid, if the temperature difference is 12 °C or more. The nectar that bees regurgitate and "chew" in their mouths is the same temperature as the bee itself (since the nectar comes out of the bee), which Ed assumes is higher than that of the surrounding air. Thus, as the bee "chews" the relatively warm nectar, moisture evaporates from it into the relatively cool air.

Modern thinking (that you'll read in modern bee books) is that the bees mostly add enzymes during this "chewing" process.

Now here's a problem: Ed's belief that bees have a higher body temperature than the surrounding air is the type of error made by people who forget that bees are cold-blooded, i.e. they take on the temperature of the ambient air (unless they heat the air themselves).

Bees keep the hive temperature at around 35 °C, and how do they do it? They heat their own bodies... and I wonder to what temperature do the bees heat up themselves to accomplish a hive temperature of 35 °C (does anyone here know the answer?). Given that the bees are fully in control of the movement of air in the loose cluster, I assume it isn't much more than 35 °C (and unlikely 45-50 °C, as Ed's bees would have to have been to make his argument work).

3.

We know (and Ed knew) what the moisture content of nectar is because we (or rather: scientists) have weighed nectar in flowers. We can't weigh the nectar as it arrives at the hive, but we can weigh it while it is still in the flower. Ed assumes that if nectar is 80% moisture in the flower, then the nectar is still 80% moisture by the time the nectar arrives at the bee hive, despite having been transported for 30-60 minutes in the bee's honey stomach.

4.

There is another place in the book where you can see old beekeeping lore vs what we now know, although this has little to do with evaporation. At around page 38 and further, Ed shows that he believes that bee hives have a much higher temperature inside, in winter, than we now know they actually have, and he argues wonderfully for his point, even though he's wrong.

the enzyme conversion only removes about 20g of water from 1 kg of 34% sucrose nectar. It would only contribute 15KJ of the 1MJ of the energy needed to remove the remaining water from the Kg of nectar to make it honey.
Ed statements about evaporation are true, however for evaporation , the liquid to be at a higher temperature is not a necessary condition.
Nectar is reduced in water content during honeybee transport in hot climates as part of the bees in flight thermoregulation but not in cooler temperate climates.
honey bee thoraxes are often well above nest temperatures(e.g. 40C) in a variety of behaviours

references for the above on request.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Ed statements about evaporation are true...
Honey bee thoraxes are often well above nest temperatures(e.g. 40C) in a variety of behaviours

Yes, after a good night's sleep, all this occurred to me, but the window for editing my post was closed (-: so thanks for the peer review (saves me from having to respond to my own post to correct the errors).

 

[TooBee...]

We (mainly me) may have made a modest mistake in our maths, sorry

If you have 1000grams of nectar at a 20% (200g) sucrose content, then I think, I said I think (those that know better please kindly correct if necessary) the bees need to remove 750g of water, so that only 50g of water is left and 200g of sucrose is left, which equals to 250g of honey.

But this is minor in the sense that it does not change the thrust of this discussion, but accuracy is important, ... for a bee making honey!

 

[user 6228]

Yes, after a good night's sleep, all this occurred to me, but the window for editing my post was closed (-: so thanks for the peer review (saves me from having to respond to my own post to correct the errors).

No problem ... just finished writing a paper on this that goes into the mathematical detail so its all still fresh in my memory.

 

[TooBee...]

the enzyme conversion only removes about 20g of water from 1 kg of 34% sucrose nectar. It would only contribute 15KJ of the 1MJ of the energy needed to remove the remaining water from the Kg of nectar to make it honey.
Ed statements about evaporation are true, however for evaporation , the liquid to be at a higher temperature is not a necessary condition.
Nectar is reduced in water content during honeybee transport in hot climates as part of the bees in flight thermoregulation but not in cooler temperate climates.
honey bee thoraxes are often well above nest temperatures(e.g. 40C) in a variety of behaviours

references for the above on request.

1000g of nectar with 340g of sucrose, is 660g of water; 20g is removed by enzyme activity (wasn't aware of this until now, so don't know the proper word/phrase for it), leaving 640g, which means the bees need to evaporate at least 405g of water to get 425g of honey.
I think this is all right?

Still, I've heard that a bee colony needs about 120kg of honey throughout the entire year, lets not argue too much on the 120kg figure and assume it's about right, Ok? That's a LOT of water for them to evaporate off over six-ish good-ish months. (Even if you consider a good nectar flow of six weeks in which you harvest 20kg from the supers, that's still a lot of water or complete air changes for the bees to perform!)

I see my bees fanning the entrance every now and then (cooling, air changing?), but with a reduced and lengthened entrance to protect against wasps and to mimic natural tree cavity hives, it's seems to me a lot of hard work to evaporate all this water, especially whenever the higher the humidity the slower the evaporation.

I'm just wondering if there is something in a tree cavity that helps with all this, that is missing in our man made hives. Can the tree absorb some moisture? Does the shape of a tree cavity help, meaning it's narrowness and height, or maybe it's curved bottom with the entrance above the floor, or maybe absorbent material on the floor of the hive?