Brood Box as Super

[victor meldrew]

Its an interesting notion, does anyone do that already ? I do wonder about wintering on that setup - thinking about how reluctant, or not, bees might be to crossing potentially multiple frame gaps vertically. Do they prefer to live / do better on / survive winter more successfully on basically just one vertical plain??
edit - and how about looking for the queen, could be a LOT of frames!!

The bees will have propolised the gap in no time so this shouldn’t pose any problems !

 

[Boston Bees]

Hi Everyone,

Does anyone on here use standard National brood boxes instead of supers, I am thinking of switching over to this method so I have just one size box throughout all my hives but was wondering if anyone could advice on the pro's and cons of this as they already do it

Thanks

I am experimenting with using entirely 6 frame nuc brood bodies for almost all my hives. It allows the use of nothing but deep frames, and gets round the box weight issue.

Not the hive height issue though ....

 

[Murox]

I am experimenting with using entirely 6 frame nuc brood bodies for almost all my hives. It allows the use of nothing but deep frames, and gets round the box weight issue.

Not the hive height issue though ....

Keep us updated form time to time when you think of it. Will be interesting to see how it works outs overwintering and in honey - are you using poly or wood ?

 

[Boston Bees]

Keep us updated form time to time when you think of it. Will be interesting to see how it works outs overwintering and in honey - are you using poly or wood ?

Will do. Poly

I like it so far. The bees seem much calmer, perhaps because a smaller area is being exposed when you take the roof off.

But it does have disadvantages. Cost for one thing. And more boxes needing to be removed to do a full inspection. And height, as I said. I'm 6'4, but still ....

Probably not something I would recommend to anyone wanting to make a living from bees.

 

[enrico]

The bees will have propolised the gap in no time so this shouldn’t pose any problems !

Why, they don't normally propolise between boxes!

 

[enrico]

Its an interesting notion, does anyone do that already ? I do wonder about wintering on that setup - thinking about how reluctant, or not, bees might be to crossing potentially multiple frame gaps vertically. Do they prefer to live / do better on / survive winter more successfully on basically just one vertical plain??
edit - and how about looking for the queen, could be a LOT of frames!!

Whenever I have a double brood of any size I only ever look in the top box. The queen cells are generally between the two boxes. Not sure how that would work if you wanted to use three shallow but at least each frame is relatively small to look at! Probably find the queen easier!

 

[Murox]

Whenever I have a double brood of any size I only ever look in the top box. The queen cells are generally between the two boxes. Not sure how that would work if you wanted to use three shallow but at least each frame is relatively small to look at! Probably find the queen easier!

Yes it always helps if you have an idea of where to look I was of course thinking about more than two shallows being used as brood area - if there are around 63,525 cells on a standard national brood frame how many would be on a shallow ? and so how many shallow frames would be the equivalent of an eleven framed brood box - any mathematical geniuses ?

 

[GuyNir]

Will do. Poly

I like it so far. The bees seem much calmer, perhaps because a smaller area is being exposed when you take the roof off.

But it does have disadvantages. Cost for one thing. And more boxes needing to be removed to do a full inspection. And height, as I said. I'm 6'4, but still ....

Probably not something I would recommend to anyone wanting to make a living from bees.

Yes, bees do very well in 6 frame nuc boxes. Nice idea but as you said, mid summer you’ll end up with a quite narrow and very tall hive. I reckon some of my hive over the summer, converted into 6 frame brood boxes, would be 6-7 boxes tall.
Maybe having two colonies together side by side, with entrances at opposite sides…

 

[oliver90owner]

Its an interesting notion, does anyone do that already ? I do wonder about wintering on that setup - thinking about how reluctant, or not, bees might be to crossing potentially multiple frame gaps vertically. Do they prefer to live / do better on / survive winter more successfully on basically just one vertical plain??
edit - and how about looking for the queen, could be a LOT of frames!!

Doesn’t that depend on the beekeeper and his/her hive arrangement? The thinking beekeeper with local hives might just invest in a few extra queen excluders and come bain a couple of days time, if they were not good at finding the queen.

Boxes separated would soon show which box has the queen - the one with the quiet bees!

How often do you actually need to find the queen?

It might only be one extra box (over and beyond the normal “brood -and-a -half”?

Those using deeps might keep their hive entrances a bit lower than the normal hive stand?

I don’t, but it would not be the first time that a swarm has found its way into some shallows, and a couple of shallows will pass off as a single deep when spares are a bit short.

 

[LeaBees]

Whenever I have a double brood of any size I only ever look in the top box. The queen cells are generally between the two boxes. Not sure how that would work if you wanted to use three shallow but at least each frame is relatively small to look at! Probably find the queen easier!

Is this the case as well in a brood & half setup ? Just look in top shallow box?

 

[enrico]

Is this the case as well in a brood & half setup ? Just look in top shallow box?

In general yes but it is more reliable when the half is at the bottom!

 

[LeaBees]

In general yes but it is more reliable when the half is at the bottom!

Thought the "half" was always at the top.. Shows I know very little..

 

[enrico]

...

 

[understanding_bees]

I am experimenting with using entirely 6 frame nuc brood bodies for almost all my hives. It allows the use of nothing but deep frames, and gets round the box weight issue.

Not the hive height issue though ....

There is another aspect to be considered. Boxes with only six frames are narrower than boxes with more frames, and therefore a tall tower of narrower boxes will be less stable, particularly in windy conditions

 

[Boston Bees]

There is another aspect to be considered. Boxes with only six frames are narrower than boxes with more frames, and therefore a tall tower of narrower boxes will be less stable, particularly in windy conditions

Yes. Though not a concern for me as I use concrete block and paving slab hive stands, and good straps. Would take a bomb to shift them

 

[Newbeeneil]

Maybe a compromise would be Paynes nucs adapted to 8 frames as this would have the advantage of weighing about the same as a national super and would also be more stable than 5/6 frame nucs.
I have had a couple of these as double brood this year for a nuc that is expanding rapidly but never really thought about putting on another as a super.

 

[PeaBee]

I only use deep national in my national apiaries for both brood and supers and find the weight manageable and it gives a degree of flexibility. Some of the largest producers that I have seen use only deeps (langstroth and Smith) again for the flexibility and simplification of equipment management.
I draw the line at using one box size with my commercial colonies and run those with shallow supers. I tend to stick to using commercial supers on them but on occasion have used national deeps instead and it works fine.

Its an interesting notion, does anyone do that already ? I do wonder about wintering on that setup - thinking about how reluctant, or not, bees might be to crossing potentially multiple frame gaps vertically. Do they prefer to live / do better on / survive winter more successfully on basically just one vertical plain??
edit - and how about looking for the queen, could be a LOT of frames!!

I think Ponts bee farm in Lincolnshire only uses shallow boxes. Seem to remember seeing that on their website.