Bizarre queenless colony post-swarm

[Ben90]

I have a colony that was planning to swarm, and I knocked down what I thought were all of the queen cells apart from two. Apparently I was wrong, because when the queen emerged and I marked her, destroying the other, they swarmed anyway. I collected the swarm today (yesterday now, technically) when someone down the road reported the swarm, and the queen in the swarm was an unmarked virgin. Checked the hives in my garden, and it was definitely this colony that had swarmed because I found emerged queen cells that I must have missed, and a population depleted by about 40%. But no sign of the queen I marked. Or of any queen for that matter. The moment I lifted the lid they behaved a lot more angrily than usual, reinforcing my suspicion that they're queenless. Is it likely that after the swarm left, two emerged queens (including my marked one) fought and killed each other?

Remedy: Test frame?

On another note, my first solo swarm collection. Thankfully they were all very understanding. The bees were in a cluster that intersected the wooden panels on both sides of a fence, so I had to climb over the fence a few times. They were stuck deep in a bush too, so it wasn't very easy accessing them. The elderly lady on one side said her son used to be a beekeeper so she was incredibly understanding and gave me tea and biscuits.

 

[Polyanwood]

Well done on collecting your first swarm.

Test frames is good thinking because grumpy bees is a sign of queenlessness, but can mean other things.

Next time please do an artificial swarm, or some other more reliable way of averting the swarming urge. It is a hard lesson, but destroying queencells in order to stop them swarming is not at all reliable.

 

[drex]

Only mark queens after mating, when you know how she is laying.

 

[oliver90owner]

-it likely that after the swarm left, two emerged queens (including my marked one) fought and killed each other?

Unlikely. Very unlikely.

Am guessing, but you part A/Sed them initially (so have the original queen in a box on the original site) but did not complete the A/S?

Marking a virgin is bad news. The workers could easily have despatched her. Or the next queen out killed her (less likely?). That queen then went when other queens emerged. Draw a time line on a piece of paper and you may well see the logical connections.

Definitely is not as certain as you might think - unless you already know what is going on in your colony. The queen was an unmarked virgin? Unmarked is easy, but how did you determine she was a virgin and not just a slimmed-down matriarch? I suggest you wait a very few days and check if she is laying or not.

I very much doubt your remaining colony is Q-. More likely a scrub queen in there somewhere, but by all means stick in a test frame for confirmation.

What really amazes me is that you found the first emerged queen and marked her without seeing any other cells. Down to luck and not understanding the A/S workings properly.

Don't suppose you moved the parent colony either?

If you do not complete the A/S procedure you must expect cast swarm trouble. The procedure was carefully designed to minimise that real risk and has been in use successfully for umpteen years.

People continually attempt to re-invent the A/S, but fail miserably becaue there is no better method than Padgen.

 

[Ben90]

Well done on collecting your first swarm.

Test frames is good thinking because grumpy bees is a sign of queenlessness, but can mean other things.

Next time please do an artificial swarm, or some other more reliable way of averting the swarming urge. It is a hard lesson, but destroying queencells in order to stop them swarming is not at all reliable.

Just to clarify, I took half the bees and old queen into a nuc before I culled the queen cells.

 

[Polyanwood]

Excellent. As Rab says there is some point to this moving the boxes after an AS too.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Excellent. As Rab says there is some point to this moving the boxes after an AS too.

It has been found that it is the foraging bees and scouts that instigate swarming, therefore by removing the queen from the 'mother ' hive and putting her into an empty (frames and foundation) box on the original site all the foragers will return to an empty hive with minimal brood and assume they have swarmed therefore their urge to swarm is addressed. The mother hive being moved away means all the foragers will leave and return to the 'new' hive meaning there will be nothing to instigate the nurse bees to swarm thus swarming need negated in both parts of the split.
By taking the queen away in a nuc and leaving the rest in situ foragers return to a full hive, all ages of bees and a QC - so they may still swarm regardless.
If you move the queen nuc more than three miles it may still have quite a few foraging bees remaining and the, too may still have the urge to swarm thus leaving you with a right fine mess.

 

[Ben90]

Found the remaining virgin yesterday and double checked every frame to make sure there were no others, seems I'm out of the woods now. I'll take heed to make sure I do a better job of A/Sing them next time. Still got another colony to keep under watch though.

Might have been out on a mating flight when I last checked?