Bait box design...

[wessexmario]

Can anybody comment on how my bottom hole idea could work.

My thoughts are if the bait box is a different size to the hive box, then having a hole in the bottom isn't the answer, as you'll still need an intermediate board/eke to make the bait box fit the hive
without gaps all around. And if you're going to do that, then you might as well have a removable floor without a hole.

but I still think you're creating as much work as you'll save on the woodwork, and make it more of a phaff working with it by having different size boxes.
The bait box doesn't have to look pretty, but you'll be better off in the long run with it being the same footprint as your hive.

 

[bjosephd]

Safe to say I am saving up for a ton of spare brood boxes etc etc. and when I am feeling a little more flush I will be able to use a couple as bait hives.

However, ar the moment I have these boxes, and frames are going in.

I'm still curious what would happen if I tried my bottom hole transfer idea. Anybody?

 

[bjosephd]

Fair enough

But if the holes fitted together snug, would the bees move down to the main hive more or less? I'm just curious what would happen.

 

[SixFooter]

I would use properly sized and constructed nuc as a bait hive

Yes. If you have nucs, they work too as do unused hives. But it is easier to put up and put down a simple box if you want to have it high up. So if you have a box on say a shed roof and you have to lower it down on a rope or carry it down a ladder, you don't want it to be in several pieces. A simple cube glued and screwed together isn't going to leak bees as you carry it down and move it to a hive.

The 15 " cube dimensions btw are based on research by Sealey et al

 

[bjosephd]

Yep, I found the Sealey page the other day, the one that someone linked to.

And yes, these are gonna go up trees, so I agree a box of loose parts is less easy to handle than a beetight screwed box with one hole.

So, if I connected a bottom hole of a bait box to the hole in a crown board of a freshly prepared hive, would they move in as they use the new entrance exit down below through the hive?

 

[MuswellMetro]

they need to be close to 40 Litres and have an entrance less than 20Sq cms facing south and positioned high.

Nucs are not optimal

i use 6 frame 14x12 nuc with resonable success, just a bit smaller in volume than a national

 

[AndrewE]

Having converted to 14 x 12 boxes quite a few years ago I now use pairs of old standard National (i.e. double) brood boxes as bait hives. A retired (but not too manky) brood frame acts as a lure and for years one on the garage roof worked without fail, as did others scattered round the area - the ground level boxes having top entrances. N.b. 40 litres [Seeley's minimum] is actually rather bigger than a national brood box (about 34 litres, admittedly without floor and crownboard.)

Isn't a swarm (honey bees' only way of propogating the species or expanding the area occupied) going to go as far as they can, rather than setting up home close by the parent colony? And why go to the trouble of setting up 2 connected boxes when an optimal sized box should work by itself? As long as a standard frame is hung in the bait box somehow they might adopt it... or maybe not:

 

[SixFooter]

Yep, I found the Sealey page the other day, the one that someone linked to.

And yes, these are gonna go up trees, so I agree a box of loose parts is less easy to handle than a beetight screwed box with one hole.

So, if I connected a bottom hole of a bait box to the hole in a crown board of a freshly prepared hive, would they move in as they use the new entrance exit down below through the hive?

Maybe they would, but Maybe not. I had a swarm take up residence in a stack of boxes. They chose to build wild comb in an empty super that was at the top even though the entrance they found was 2 boxes below. I ended up leaving them to it and setting them up with the wild comb super and a brood box underneath. They have brood in the brood box now, but it's recent

 

[Roola]

they need to be close to 40 Litres and have an entrance less than 20Sq cms facing south and positioned high.

Nucs are not optimal

Not optimal but not impossible either. I caught a prime swarm in converted paynes poly with eke last week. I'd agree with you a standard poly probably isn't adequate but a slight enlargement seems to be attractive to bees.

 

[BeeJayBee]

So, if I connected a bottom hole of a bait box to the hole in a crown board of a freshly prepared hive, would they move in as they use the new entrance exit down below through the hive?

Bees prefer to move upwards, so are more likely to fill your near empty upper bait box with a load of wild comb and completely ignore the lower box with its' nice frames until they think they're running out of space.

 

[Obee1]

Safe to say I am saving up for a ton of spare brood boxes etc etc. and when I am feeling a little more flush I will be able to use a couple as bait hives

Mann lake are selling cedar brood boes for £14. I bought some this week and whilst not as robust as big T the would certainly last a fair few years. I'm going to dot some around as bait hives by fixing a ply wood top and bottom then drilling an entrance hole in the plywood and place them upended in my trees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I use a previously lived-in poly 14x12 with a ply floor and a wine bottle cork sized hole an inch from the bottom. Inside is a brooded shallow frame and two 14x12 frames made up with starter strips and fishing wire

 

[Dishmop]

I had bees move into an unassembled hive........Boxes were in garden waiting for paint to dry.The box they went into wasnt even standing level and had no floor.

 

[itma]

Bees will not "transfer downwards" into another box - at least not until after they have fully colonised the upper one. Knowing what happens during a Bailey comb change, and what happens when you put an empty glass jar (or an Apidea with the floor open) over a coverboard hole, should instantly show you that the idea is daft.

After you have tried to get a swarm out of an odd place (or box) that they have moved into, you'll realise that it is daft not to give them (re)movable frames. Hey, there is good reason that skep beekeeping has been supplanted by this new (only 150 years old) idea of movable frames with controlled accurate beespace.
And you would be making things more difficult than they need be if you were to choose a different frame type to your standard hive.

A swarm sends out scouts to search for suitable new homes.
The bees then evaluate and compare those that are on offer. And then within a radius of about a mile, so from candidate sites discovered within about 3 sq miles search area they select the one that best meets their idea of "ideal".
So, every departure from what the bees want makes it less likely that bees will choose to move in.
For an effective (working, swarm-attracting) bait hive, you need to give them what they are looking for.
Or they'll simply go elsewhere.

Seeley did a bunch of experiments to determine what mattered (and what didn't) matter in the bees preference scale for choosing where they are going to go.
He wrote a book about it.
It is called "Honeybee Democracy" and time spent reading it would be well spent. (Its about £12 on Amazon and many libraries have it.)
I'm not going to summarise the book - because you'd learn more by reading it for yourself. Its a fascinating and pretty easy read.
But I will just say that you are mistaken in saying that bees prefer a space without frames and comb or foundation.
You should also distinguish between Seeley's methods of experimenting, and their practical application in a bait hive that does not need its features adjusted for a different experiment tomorrow.

The advised features are not options. They are what makes a bait hive work!
The better you match the bees requirements, the more chance you have of success. There is always a tiny chance that the bees will decide to move into your lawnmower, but there's a massively better chance they would choose a wisely-designed bait hive.

 

[bjosephd]

Ok

I ask questions about things I don't know the anawer to. I think it would be more daft to not ask them at all.

 

[mintmoth]

Midnight sun posted a link to the youtube video of "Honeybee Democracy" last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnnjY823e-w

 

[bjosephd]

But anyway, thanks for all your thoughts... always amazed by how much comment these threads generate. Always very helpful for a daft beginner.

Also Mann Lake seem crazy cheap kit. Their stuff any good? I migh get a cheap nuc box from them at least. Handy for bait or getting a nuc from a local beek.

 

[bjosephd]

Hey mintmoth,

Thanks, I'll have a look at the vid later on.

Actually one of my jobs is a bookseller in Waterstones Bookshop, so I can access almost any book and get it for half price. Maybe I should invest in the Honeybee Democracy book. I've ordered the Rose Hive book, and also have the Haynes Manual bee book.

I'm tempted to get the Hooper book and also the Practical Beekeeper by Michael Bush.

But trying to hold off going book crazy. Too many cooks maybe.

 

[pargyle]

. Always very helpful for a daft beginner.

Only daft if you ignore advice that appears to be consistent ... never daft to ask the questions in the first place ..

As for books ... whilst you get a good deal from Waterstones - always a good idea to check ebay and Amazon for good second hand copies - I have also picked up useful - well interesting - tomes from Oxfam bookshop and those lovely second hand bookshops that are still to be found in some places.

You can never have enough bee books for when winter arrives !

 

[BeeJayBee]

I ask questions about things I don't know the anawer to. I think it would be more daft to not ask them at all.

Yes it would. That's what this forum is for, to exchange ideas and information. Difficult sometimes, though, to sift through and separate the useful bits of advice from what's best left alone.

Keep an eye out for books on the auction site, they often go cheaper in the summer because people are looking out for equipment rather than something to read.