Artificial Swarm - Some Advice Please

[JohnSB]

I had to do an artificial swarm for the first time today, after finding six queen cells with larvae. I only had a six frame nucleus box to do it with, and I am unsure whether I have done it in the best way. All the advice I have learned to date has involved an additional full sized brood chamber (with roof and floor of course), which I can't afford right now. I will bullet point what I did below, and have also included some crude diagrams of the various states of the hive to help illustrate.

I have the opportunity to change things tomorrow (assuming I can persuade the wife to let me got to the apiary again) so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

1. Knowing I had to leave the original queen and supers in the original location I decided to use the hive for the artificial swarm, and used the nucleus box for the original colony.
2. I didn't want to over fill the nucleus box with bees so I decided to put 3 frames of brood and a frame with half brood and half stores in it from the hive. I then put two frames of foundation to make up numbers.
3. Not wanting to leave too much brood with the orginal queen I gave two shallow frames (with drone comb underneath) to my parents to put in their hive.
4. This left four frames of brood and some new foundation in the original hive.

Knowing I have to work with the limitation of the equipment I have, have I done this in the best and / or an acceptable way? Have I created trouble for myself?

The hive upon inspection today.

The hive after artificial swarm today (containing artificial swarm).

The nucleus box after artificial swarm today (containing original colony).

 

[RoseCottage]

Firstly I want to say well done...loving the diagrams.

I believe that you should try and avoid leaving much brood - perhaps just a single frame - in the original position with the queen. If you leave more then there is a strong chance that the swarming instinct still remains and the queen could be off.

Is there something more you can to reduce the number of brood frames in the original location with the queen?

All the best,
Sam

 

[JohnSB]

Thanks for replying.

I could move more brood in to my parents' two hives. They split their hive (due to he clipped queen swarming, rather than an AS) three or four weeks ago. Their virgin queen has now mated and is laying like a gooden. They currently have 5 frames of brood with the original queen, and seven with then new queen. I could move three frames in to their five brood frame hive... good plan?

EDIT: Actually my parent's original queen hive now has five frames of brood and two short frames of brood with drone comb underneath (which I gave them today to get rid of some brood).

 

[herefordshirehoney]

What you using to do the nice diagrams?

 

[JohnSB]

Just a Google spreadsheet with the rows and columns of the right size and shaded a colour. I gather that links are not allowed on the forum, however I can send you a PM with a link to my template if you like.

 

[region2]

Link it - it's not spam or an ad! Use the

button...

R2

 

[Poly Hive]

sorry dinna have time to work out your pics.

I put the queen and a couple of frames of brood in the Nuc, and leave an open cell with the main lot to get on with.

PH

 

[JohnSB]

Link it - it's not spam or an ad! Use the

button...

R2

Okay. Last time I put a link in a post it got taken out by a mod. I did read the rules however, and there was nothing against links to personal sites. This is less a site and more something people might find useful.

https://spreadsheets1.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?hl=en_GB&key=tBxiQtahuQR1JuQ410nb9MA&hl=en_GB#gid=5

 

[JohnSB]

sorry dinna have time to work out your pics.

I put the queen and a couple of frames of brood in the Nuc, and leave an open cell with the main lot to get on with.

PH

Thanks PH. I like that much better than what I ended up doing. It does beg the question why is this not standard practice?

 

[Mike a]

Thanks PH. I like that much better than what I ended up doing. It does beg the question why is this not standard practice?

Depends who or where you get your advice from I guess.

Most of the books I've read have various takes on how to A/S

 

[Artisan]

sorry dinna have time to work out your pics.

I put the queen and a couple of frames of brood in the Nuc, and leave an open cell with the main lot to get on with.

PH

Poly Hive,

I have seen you mention the nuc method before. If it is the only method you use it would mean that your
hive to nuc box ratio would be totally different to someone following the more published method of using another BB for the AS.

I am interested because am trying to think through a list of new kit for next season.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Poly Hive]

Ok look at the costs.

Conventional wisdom says you need a complete hive for your AS. As I dinna use timber kit if I possibly can I am not up to speed on costs, so from a well known catalogue.... Floor plus brood box plus CB plus roof = £139.76 from 2010 price list.

My nucs cost roughly £35 on my doorstep from Denmark. A shade under four for one. (3.97 to be precise)

The aim of an AS is to guide swarming in the direction you want. For me that means a new queen in the main stock and a back up nuc, which I will re-queen later and sell in spring. Or if I were not selling then it could be added to the primary stock to boost it for the heather.

There is both a serious cost saving in this system not to mention considerable flexibility.

PH

 

[JohnSB]

I actually went back today and changed over my AS to how you described PH. I like it much better. I am new to beekeeping, and have the following questions:

1) Will the main hive be tempted to build new queen cells once the new queen comes online? There are a lot of bees in the hive (the same as there was before minus two frames of brood, a couple of stores and bees on the frames) and the old queen was this year's (i.e. they swarmed with this many bees before with a new queen, I can't think why they wouldn't again).

2) With a nuc not having the option of adding more space, do these not become over crowded? I would like to recombine once the new queen is online (I want just one hive). Will the nuc give enough space until that happens? Is this a good plan?

3) I have heard a lot of different opinions about the number of queen cells to leave after an AS. I have decided to leave two, under the advice that once the first queen has emerged the second will be torn down. This strike me as a risk, and could allow a swarm to go if that doesn't happen. As the main hive has a full flying force and lots of house bees I worry that they will let a swarm go more readily in this setup. What's everyone's opinion?

 

[Poly Hive]

The main unit is losing strength day by day. There will be a considerable loss of power before the new queen is mated and laying.

I leave an open cell. then a, I know it is "live" and b, it holds things back just that bit more.

The nuc will be a good two to three months before it gets over crowded.

Is one hive a good idea, absolutely no. Every beekeeper should have two so you can check the condition of a suspect one, (test frame) and as a back up queen.

Any other questions fire away.

PH

 

[Artisan]

Poly,

Would you mind doing a step by step for an AS using a nuc if the intention is to reintegrate back into the same hive and all within a single apiary ?

Peter

 

[Poly Hive]

Yes. Sorry but not tonight.

PH

 

[Artisan]

Yes. Sorry but not tonight.

PH

Thank you in advance

 

[JohnSB]

Thanks PH. Worth noting that my parents have a hive in the same apiary, so we can use each other's brood etc when required.

 

[onriver]

after today I've sworn I will never again leave 2 (let alone 3!) queen cells to "fight it out" when they emerge - the first to emerge always seems to leg it with half the bees!
maybe my queens are too soft!?