Artificial swarm options now

[MandF]

Perhaps not shooting the messenger

You perhaps need to look back at some of the previous postings.

What comes around, goes around.

How old are you?

 

[scuttlefish]

Which takes me back to the question, has anyone done a split as a swarm technique, and it not worked in preventing/supressing the original hive's swarm instinct?

Yes, last year - both the original hive and the split subsequently swarmed. Neither new queen mated properly - the split went DLQ and died off (my inexperience - I spotted it too late) and the original went completely Q- but I managed to re-queen thanks to another beek's generosity.

 

[Polyanwood]

Yes I too have done AS and splits in an attempt to reduce the risk of swarming and I confirm that the later works much less reliably as it does not quell the swarming instinct.

 

[MandF]

Yes, last year - both the original hive and the split subsequently swarmed.

Can I ask if they both swarmed later in the year?

As I said, when I split last year, the original hive got a bit swarmy again later, but I am sure that is because it grew quickly back to a full hive and was getting low on space.

Rather than the original continuing to swarm even after the 5/6 frames of brood were removed from it? ie did removing the 5/6 frames stop the initial swarming instinct (but effectively delayed it)?

 

[scuttlefish]

Yes I too have done AS and splits in an attempt to reduce the risk of swarming and I confirm that the later works much less reliably as it does not quell the swarming instinct.

And funnily enough, this year's "swarm" part of my AS is already stronger than a straight split, they were up to five frames of fresh larvae & eggs within a couple of weeks.

 

[oliver90owner]

I confirm that the later works much less reliably as it does not quell the swarming instinct.

Yep! Padgen knew that, and beeks were well aware a long time before, and he sorted the problem as best it can be.. No need to try to re-invent any of the failed attempts.

 

[scuttlefish]

Can I ask if they both swarmed later in the year?

As I said, when I split last year, the original hive got a bit swarmy again later, but I am sure that is because it grew quickly back to a full hive and was getting low on space.

Rather than the original continuing to swarm even after the 5/6 frames of brood were removed from it? ie did removing the 5/6 frames stop the initial swarming instinct (but effectively delayed it)?

Couldn't say for sure, for various reasons I couldn't get back to either hive for nearly three weeks after the split - but neither brood box was back up to full capacity (about 3/4ths) of bees or drawn comb before they swarmed. AS at the start of June, split had swarmed by end June.

 

[MandF]

Yes I too have done AS and splits in an attempt to reduce the risk of swarming and I confirm that the later works much less reliably as it does not quell the swarming instinct.

Thanks - again could you confirm whether that relates to the immediate instinct to swarm, or you mean for the season?

As swarm control, if doing one AS in a season sorts out the hives for that season I can see how it is preferential than splitting if there is a good chance that both splits will grow large enough within the season to want to swarm again.

I am trying to get to the bottom of whether splitting will not stop the original hive continuing to swarm at the time of the split. If, as it turns out, AS instead of splitting has little or no effect on honey yield (and therefore splitting is just a less labour intensive option) it is a moot point, but still interesting to know.

I am not trying to avoid AS because of the work involved, simply looking at the honey yield

 

[scuttlefish]

I am trying to get to the bottom of whether splitting will not stop the original hive continuing to swarm at the time of the split. If, as it turns out, AS instead of splitting has little or no effect on honey yield (and therefore splitting is just a less labour intensive option) it is a moot point, but still interesting to know.

I am not trying to avoid AS because of the work involved, simply looking at the honey yield

The swarm part of this year's AS has filled a super (their third in total) since the AS (about two and a half weeks ago) - no reduction in yield that I can see.

 

[MandF]

Couldn't say for sure, for various reasons I couldn't get back to either hive for nearly three weeks after the split - but neither brood box was back up to full capacity (about 3/4ths) of bees or drawn comb before they swarmed. AS at the start of June, split had swarmed by end June.

Ah ok, thats what I wanted to hear - I presume you mean 'split at the start of June'

 

[scuttlefish]

Ah ok, thats what I wanted to hear - I presume you mean 'split at the start of June'

I've got AS on the brain... yes, "split at the start of June"

 

[MandF]

The swarm part of this year's AS has filled a super (their third in total) since the AS (about two and a half weeks ago) - no reduction in yield that I can see.

Yeah, I have read that swarms go into overdrive and can catch up and overtake the parent hive wrt honey yield.

As I said before, my main concern was that the catching up was being done during the main flow, not before it, as would be the case with an earlier AS, but it seems I was worrying unduly.

 

[MattC]

Been following this thread with interest. There was a swarm control method outlined in Beecraft a couple of months ago which divides brood frames equally between queen +ve and queen -ve halves of a vertical split. I was a little surprised to read this because my impression matched the responses here ie if you leave too much brood with the queen you might not adequately suppress the swarm instinct. Although maybe this is achieved by moving the entrance and diverting the flying bees instead? Has anyone tried this?

 

[scuttlefish]

Has anyone tried this?

Nope, and I'm probably not likely to as long as the straightforward AS works for me.

 

[Finman]

Been following this thread with interest.

Yep. 2-hive owners in brain work...

 

[MandF]

Yep. 2-hive owners in brain work...

You been sniffing the Reyka again Finman?

 

[Finman]

You been sniffing the Reyka again Finman?

Our classic is pöytäviina. It has been made from paper factory's pulp. For harsh guys...

 

[MandF]

Been following this thread with interest. There was a swarm control method outlined in Beecraft a couple of months ago which divides brood frames equally between queen +ve and queen -ve halves of a vertical split. I was a little surprised to read this because my impression matched the responses here ie if you leave too much brood with the queen you might not adequately suppress the swarm instinct. Although maybe this is achieved by moving the entrance and diverting the flying bees instead? Has anyone tried this?

At the end of the day noone fully understands the "mind" of a social insect, apparently splits dont always supress the swarm instinct, but then again sometimes an AS doesnt. It doesnt matter if you have 2 hives, 2000 hives or no hives. Indeed only having a few hives gives one the benefit of being able to spend time thinking about these things.

From what I have read, splits work, be they vertical or new locations, because the swarming hive all of a sudden has lots more space, and a lot less bees. Crowding is definitely a trigger for swarming, and it therefore follows if crowding triggers swarming, then de-crowding can remove that trigger.

If it wasnt crowding which was the trigger, then presumably thats when splitting (to decrowd) doesnt work.

And it is nothing to do with reinventing the wheel, if people want to think about or try alternatives to the de-facto AS, then I think they should be encouraged. If noone tried to do stuff off their own back and stuck to the traditional ways we'd all still be using skeps.

And matchsticks.

 

[MandF]

Our classic is pöytäviina. It has been made from paper factory's pulp. For harsh guys...

Ouch, that sounds brutal!