Are they planning to supercede or swarm?

[jackstraw]

For personal commitments I have been unable to open my bees for 19 days although I did manage to glance into the super last week (30 Apr).
My set up from top down is Roof, CB, Super, Q excluder, brood box, super, floor. There are 5 frames of untouched foundation in the top super, eight brood frames have stores or brood, the bottom super is 1/4 full of stores/pollen/brood. The colony have never been particularly large or productive.

When I opened up on 16 April there was a good pattern of brood with only a small amount of empty cells between brood. Although I did not see the queen there were eggs present. I also counted 8 small queen cups all mid frame and all empty of eggs or larvae

When I open up yesterday (5 May) the amount of stores in the top super has increased since 16/4 and 30/4). Stores elsewhere seems unchanged. However there are now 5 sealed queen cells on brood frames 2,5 and 8. All the queens cells have the appearance of classic supercedure cells. All mid frame and none are converted worker cells (emergency queen cells). There were no queen cells on the bottom of any of the frames.

There was a large amount of sealed brood. There was some unsealed brood. There were no eggs present and the queen was not seen. Numbers overall seemed down slightly but it was a glorious sunny day (much better than the last inspection) and many could be out foraging.

I am planning to replace the queen (over-defensive guard bees) and have a new queen on order (due19/5). Nevertheless I am really intrigued as to what has taken place.

1. As there are some larvae but no eggs present I assume my old queen has gone, albeit in the last 3-8 days. How soon before the new queen emerges (edited) does the old queen usually vacate the hive.

2. If it is supercedure wouuld the bees dispatch the old queen before the new one has emerged

3. If the new q has emerged, although there were no open queen cells or obvious signs of resealing would she not have killed the remaining new queens

4. When a swarm goes, how much stores are left behind. I think I have about 80-90% of the stores still in the hive. The frames in the brood box are full of either stores or brood, the super has some stores in the drawn foundation, the remaining frames are undrawn

5. Do the bees carry out a planned supercedure during May

6. Do the bees use mid-frame ‘supercedure-type’ cells for swarms or are swarm cells always on the bottom edge of frames

Any other comments would as always be welcomed

 

[Sadders]

I may be wrong (and usually am) but I was told that closed QC means in all likelihood the old queen has already buggered off.

 

[oliver90owner]

1. At precisely that same time.

2. No, but if she was already failing ....

3. Might depend on swarming or suercedure? How do you think cast swarms arise?

4. Depends on the size of the swarm and how much stores are in the hive at that time?

5. Bees do not plan supercedures. It happens when .......it's needed.

6. There is a difference of form between the two types. Supercedure could be converted to swarming. And, no, not all swarm cells are found at the bottom of the frames.

Other comment: get a good beekeeping book and read it more than once.

 

[jackstraw]

What do you think has taken place?

1. At precisely that same time.

2. No, but if she was already failing ....

3. Might depend on swarming or suercedure? How do you think cast swarms arise?

4. Depends on the size of the swarm and how much stores are in the hive at that time?

5. Bees do not plan supercedures. It happens when .......it's needed.

6. There is a difference of form between the two types. Supercedure could be converted to swarming. And, no, not all swarm cells are found at the bottom of the frames.

Other comment: get a good beekeeping book and read it more than once.

Thank you for your reply

The colony had about 20-25,000 bees. The reduction in numbers is slight, no more than 20%
The reduction in honey is slight – no more than 8-10lbs maximum has gone, leaving 20lbs max
The colony is not short of space in either the brood or stores area.
There is no sign of disease, varroa, and the laying pattern was good
The queen stopped laying 3-8 days ago.
There are 5 sealed queen cells all mid-frame

I have read and re-read my good bee books but none of them cover my current situation. My gut reaction is that they have not swarmed and are not planning to do so but have decided to replace their queen mid season. It puzzles me that she has stopped laying 3+ days before the replacement has emerged or if the replacement has emerged that the remaining q cells are intact. Whilst I appreciate that it is easier with an open hive in front of you but using your knowledge and experience what do you think has taken place?

 

[drstitson]

"The reduction in numbers is slight"

you admit you haven't inspected for 19 days.

think about where we are on the honey bee population graph.

they could've swarmed and you'd be none the wiser - apart from absence of queen & eggs and presence of sealed QCs.

 

[Amari]

"You haven't inspected for 19 days". In that time I would have expected a major expansion of the brood nest and a great increase in honey stores - after all there is a flow on at the moment especially if you are near OSR. Certainly my own colonies have blossomed over the last 3/52. I suspect you have lost a swarm

 

[REDWOOD]

A classic supersedure can turn into a swarm, it happened to me, three lovely QC in the middle of one frame, useless bees until I re-queened them

 

[sharonh]

What age was the Queen? was she clipped or marked?
Supersedure is usually the result of a failing queen. Yes the supersedure q cells are usually on the face of the comb, but five seems alot.
If all cells are sealed, no sign of your queen, then more than likely she has swarmed.
You need to establish first is she there or not. Next you need to make a decision on what you are going to do next.
q cells sealed day 8, and emerges day 16. Even if they were sealed today for instance, they will emerge May 14th, which is still five days before your new ordered queen arrives.
If you leave the best q cell, she will only be on mating flights when your new queen arrives. A new queen will be hard to spot, as her abdomen wouldn't be fully extended until in lay.
If you remove all q cells, with the wait for a new queen, you could end up with laying workers.
Is there any possible way of getting a new Queen quicker than the 19th, if your existing queen is definitely gone, and you don't want a queen with same genes as your old queen.

 

[beeno]

The colony had about 20-25,000 bees. The reduction in numbers is slight, no more than 20%
The reduction in honey is slight – no more than 8-10lbs maximum has gone, leaving 20lbs max
The queen stopped laying 3-8 days ago.
There are 5 sealed queen cells all mid-frame

Hi jackstraw,
All the information above are classic signs of the issue of the prime swarm. Make sure you don't get a bunch of casts!

 

[jackstraw]

Thanks for your comments and advice

The missing queen was born in July 13. She was marked but not clipped

Three weeks ago this colony was about the same in bee population as the three adjacent hives. When I checked this weekend there was no appreciable difference in numbers. Hence my assumption that there was at most a slight reduction in numbers. I appreciate that there should be a growth spurt going on, but perhaps because they are kept away from rape (no easy feat in Kent) the growth in these four colonies is not massive at the moment.

I accept the advice that they have most likely swarmed. What lead me away from coming to this conclusion was that the numbers of bees had not reduced dramatically and there were no cells which had been emptied of stores. Almost all drawn cells had stores or brood in them

Damage limitation is now the objective. Especially thinking about my new queen due on 19th May.

Assuming that the new virgin queen is going to be difficult to spot (thanks for the heads up Sharon) On a warm day around 11/12th May I will take a couple of frames of brood from the colony (although the youngest brood will be about 13/14 days old so there may not be very much then) I will put these into a nuc. Normally I would shake down some house bees to look after the brood but I cannot be certain that I will not shake the virgin queen in as well so instead I will then put the nuc where the original box was and when the foragers return they will fly into the nuc and will tend the brood frames. A sort of artificial swarm. When the queen arrives on 19th I will introduce her into the nuc via her travelling cage. Once I have taken the brood frames out I will move the original hive to an out apiray 4 miles away, and then leave alone for the queen to mate and start laying. Once all has happened in a couple of months time I will merge the two colonies

One flaw in my plan that I can see is if the timing of my moving the nuc into place coincides with the virgin queen out on a mating flight. She will then end up in the nuc which is the main thing I am trying to avoid

Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be? Can a virgin queen pass through a queen excluder? If not then I could just shake down bees from above the qe knowing that the v. queen is not included.

Comments or suggestions of better ways to resolve this would be welcomed

Jack

 

[drstitson]

"there were no cells which had been emptied of stores"

eh?

when swarming imminent i thought you get backfilling of stores into cells as no new brood expected whereas if not intent on swarming then likely to be empty polished cells ready for next round of egg laying.
also as queen going off lay there would likely have been an excess of capped brood, outwith the normal ratio.

 

[jackstraw]

Eh indeed

"there were no cells which had been emptied of stores"

eh?

when swarming imminent i thought you get backfilling of stores into cells as no new brood expected whereas if not intent on swarming then likely to be empty polished cells ready for next round of egg laying.
also as queen going off lay there would likely have been an excess of capped brood, outwith the normal ratio.

Eh indeed!
When I inspected - which popular advice seems to be was after the swarming took place rather than before there were queen cells and no queen but other than that the situation was normal. No backfilled stores into cells, no empty cells where those backfilled stores had been removed by swarmees, no obvious increase in the number of polished cells or excess capped brood cells outwith the normal ratio.

 

[drstitson]

AFAIK you don't magically see a depletion of stores taken by the swarmees.

 

[jackstraw]

Thanks

AFAIK you don't magically see a depletion of stores taken by the swarmees.

I understand, thanks for your comments

 

[beeno]

Hi jackstraw,
Weather is going to be rubbish apart from Friday it seems and date of emergence is Monday! Personally, I would not want to mess around with the colony after she has emerged, so I would do it tomorrow. No need to move parent box to out apiary. Just make sure you don't leave a QC in the A/S part and double check again before introducing bought queen, but it would seem there is no brood young enough to make more QC from. Good luck!