An appeal to the Sherlock Holmes amongst you.

[lancee]

Greetings to all.
I would firstly like to say what a great forum, some terrific info' on here, I wish I had found it sooner.
I am a new forum member and and third year keeper and this is my first posting.
I would graciously like to ask esteemed members opinions regarding the (hopefully) attached photographs and the current state of in hive proceedings !
Briefly the old Queen definitely went several weeks ago (seen on the ground), Queen cells subsequently found, artificial swarm attempted (and failed !).
I have since held the suspicion that the colony was Queenless and having captured and hived another now thriving seperate swarm 10 days ago have been waiting for a frame of brood from this new colony to use as a test frame.

Recent inspections have raised my hopes of a supercedure Queen, hence the attached photo's taken tonight.

I think (and am hoping that) I can see eggs, three in one cell! (not good?) various stages of larvae and a few capped brood, mixed in with some stores, also a couple of sneaky leafcutter bees which seem to have moved in !

Let me know what you think, thanks in anticipation !

 

[mbc]

smells like a drone layer to me

 

[lancee]

Doom merchant !!!

 

[mbc]

scattered laying and some cells being closed in a pronounced dome points that way to me, sorry and all that but I shouldnt think anything worthwhile will come of this one (IMO)

 

[lancee]

That's okay, all replies, even depressing ones, gratefully received.
Even unwelcome advice is useful advice !

 

[lancee]

Probably getting too late in the season now, but would the introduction of a test frame with young fertilised eggs/larvae trigger the production of Queen cells in the hope of producing a new Queen?

 

[Tom Bick]

I would suspect laying workers.

 

[REDWOOD]

with above, how did your queen get on the grass, was she clipped ?

 

[oliver90owner]

Briefly the old Queen definitely went several weeks ago (seen on the ground), Queen cells subsequently found, artificial swarm attempted (and failed !).

Fairly clear it would fail, but I am wondering how you could attempt it with no queen!

However, could be a queen in there of sorts, but equally (likely more than equally, IMO) could be laying workers.

I would say this colony needs frames of brood and then a laying queen - bought in(?) - to have a good chance of seeing the winter in any decent shape

Sorry, but like mbc another doom merchant here.

There is nothing there to encourage me to be enthusiastic for any good outcome with the colony.

It could raise a queen, of that there is little doubt (if enough bees), but in the lap of the gods for time to get itself sorted for the winter. I looks as though it needs a lot of help and you don't really have the resources.

 

[susbees]

Not at all how a Q- hive could produce a supersedure queen either but perhaps that's splitting hairs.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Would people please cease with the 'it's too late in the season to let them rear their own Q' quotes!

It's not too late - particularly if there is little choice in the matter - viable Queens from QCs can be produced well in to September and it is by no means unusual. In fact up until fairly recently (more, before the advent of bought-in, imported Queens) some honey farmers used to kill all of their Queens after they took their final harvest and let their numerous hives then re-Queen themselves.

(ps.....this is NOT aimed at any one poster in particular.......there are plenty of brood cycles left!)

 

[oliver90owner]

Would people please cease with the 'it's too late in the season to let them rear their own Q' quotes!


I didn't, but this is a colony that has been Q- or rather no laying queen, for umpteen weeks already. I agree with supercedure late in the year - where there may be two laying queens.

Last year the autumn went on , and on, and on...

New beeks, so far a lousy year with little prospect of a late 'rally', indeterminate hives of old bees - so little wonder people are a bit despondent.

This colony can raise a queen from a test frame, but I am not sure it's going to recover by autumn. I can see a scrub queen being superceded in about October. Might not happen like that but....

 

[lancee]

Thanks to everyone, please keep your opinions coming, some really helpful information has been given already which, although much of it not being what I wanted to hear, I genuinely appreciate.
I would rather have the hard truth than delude myself.

The reason I started to keep bees is because we have an abandoned dovecote (thanks to the local Sparrowhawk) which subsequently seems to have performed well as a "bait box" on several occasions to date.
To cut a long story short all the bees we have came to us of their own choice, the first "group" arriving three years ago.

Regarding the hive in question, the old Queen was found "abandoned"? just outside the hive, apparently "on her last legs" several weeks ago.

Queen cells were subsequently found, but being unsure of the best course of action in the circumstances, and having yet to discover this forum, through inexperience, hands up I don't think I have acted quickly enough or in the correct manner, but I am learning all the time and intend to get it right next time.

I am now (possibly mistakenly?) entertaining the idea of a test frame, this hopefully producing a viable Queen cell, which with the benefit of the wonderful Indian summer of which we are all definitely deserving! will potentially allow enough time for the colony to build up for the winter.

Back to delusion again ???!

Thanks everyone.

 

[Andy Duff]

You could merge the two colonies and keep as a double brood. AS next year

 

[thepliedes]

Hi there

I had a similar experience last year. In the end, I had to shake out the frames in front of an existing hive to give them a chance of survival before winter. I closed the old hive down and then did an artificial swarm in May. The hive is doing well.

I let the situation develop much as you were doing, but in the end it didn't help and it would have been better for the bees to have shaken the frames out in front of my other hive sooner.

These things happen and are a learning curve for us.

All the best.

 

[lancee]

Thanks, sounds like a useful option (merging colonies), having done some (quite a lot now!) reading I had fleetingly considered it as a possible option, your reply has reminded me and reassured me of the possibility.
I would still like to attempt to rescue the original colony, perhaps if my attempt fails I could unite the colonies before winter sets in ?
Maybe shaking out is the answer, keep the advice coming, is it linear or logarithmic this learning curve !!

 

[Walrus]

If it is laying workers then they won't accept a queen which is a complete PITA. If you combine with a Q+ hive they may kill that queen, making it even worse.

One option is to add a frame of open brood every week for a few weeks until they make a queen cell. Then you just have to hope that she gets mated and has time to lay enough to get up to some sort of strength for winter. Once the colony has a laying queen you could combine it with another weak colony (kill oldest queen) to go into winter a bit stronger.

 

[MuswellMetro]

QC several weeks ago.....can you be more definite...if it is within five weeks i would say it is a unmated scrub queen not drone laying workers

...too short a time if under six weeks for DLW and the brood to me looks typical of an unmated drone laying queen....forget about two eggs, she young

seive the bees and find the DLQ and combine with the swarm if it is queenright

if it is DLW then you will have eggs anywhere not just in the brood area

 

[Suzi Q]

Pic 2, is that a laying worker caught in the act? Looks like a worker with her abdomen in a cell.

 

[DanBee]

Please understand the following caveats regarding photos of combs:

1) Lighting/shadows and lens distortion can play tricks on the eye
2) The temptation to grab the frame and twist to a better angle is ever-present
3) One odd photo does not make a positive diagnosis

With that said, I'd ask somebody more experienced to look at the colony, preferrably a local Inspector. I don't like what I'm seeing in the two cells highlighted.

Could be odd shadows, shaking hard or banging the frame, early-stage chalkbrood, or whatever, but those two larvae do not look correct.

Do not panic, but do get an informed 2nd opinion