Ambrosia

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foxhill

New Bee
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Oswaldtwistle, Lancs
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Hi everyone.
I am new to beekeeping and have a nucleus which is now on 6 frames and I'm feeding them sugar syrup as suggested by the man I got the bees from. I have been reading about ambrosia and wondering if anyone has used it and what they think of it? It sounds really good but I don't want to buy into a marketing ploy that is no different to sugar syrup.

Thanks
Sarah
:confused:
 
Hi Sarah

Welcome. 'My' bees like sugar syrup. I like sugar syrup because it's nice n cheap.

The advantage of Ambrosia is that the bees don't have to work on it so much to convert the sugar to a more useable form (the formulation is close to that of nectar, apparently). I figure that the bees have got a lot of time on their hands and there are a lot of them :)

By the way, your bees should be bringing in their own supply of nectar at this time of year so you may be feeding them needlessly (an even cheaper option)!
 
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Hi everyone. and
I am new to beekeeping and have a nucleus which is now on 6 frames and I'm feeding them sugar syrup as suggested by the man I got the bees from. I have been reading about ambrosia and wondering if anyone has used it and what they think of it? It sounds really good but I don't want to buy into a marketing ploy that is no different to sugar syrup.

Thanks
Sarah
:confused:

various makers of similar part inverted sugar including german sugar beet processors nordsucher and Sudsurcher sold again under varius names Ambrosia ,Apiinvert, and Cerestar

praised as the best thing since sliced bread by some, thought expensive by others

test on production of royal jelly in link below

http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2006/sest_sug_rj.pdf

alternatives would be to add fructose and glucose to sugar water or partialy invert sugar 1:1 syrup by adding 1 or 2gm vitamin C powder per litre, though acid inverting using vitamin C or cider vinegar is not like by some beekeepers as the temp required causes higher HMF
 
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its very different from sugar syrup , it is expensive if you buy from the main outlets (very expensive) have a word at your local club to see if anyone knows a commercial guy who buys in bulk, who may be interested in selling some, i know several bee farmers who do.it maybe twice the price but you do use half as much, it doesn't ferment,it doesn't get the bees all excited and its an instant fix if you have a colony close to starving. I've been using nothing else for years now and wouldn't change but thats just my opinion,tried using fondant once and thought what a complete waste of time that was , never used it since but I'm in a very small minority there, as i say its an opinion thing, all i would suggest is try some and see how you get on.
 
its very different from sugar syrup , it is expensive if you buy from the main outlets (very expensive) have a word at your local club to see if anyone knows a commercial guy who buys in bulk, who may be interested in selling some,

Yes, I'm convinced too and will be using it. The bees produce X I think it's worth spending X/5 or 6 to keep them fit and healthy.

Sugar's cheap but so is misery?
 
iit maybe twice the price but you do use half as much, it doesn't ferment,.

sorry No, i disagree, it is the total energy content that matter, Ambrosia DOES NOT contain twice as much energy per litre, if you look at the link i posted it gives the ratio of sugar, fructose ,glucose. sucrose etc

if you add Acid to non inverted sucrose sugar and heat slightly you invert the sugar to fructose/glucose, to much heat and you create hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF)

any acid will stop straight sugar syrup fermenting by changing the Ph, no heat and ascorbic acid as Vit C 2gm per litre is just as good at stopping fermentation as expensive part inverted sugar,

nectar and honey contain Vit C at about 2gm per litre, so does your ambrosia?, inverted sugar made commercial is normally inverted by sulphuric Acid whereas bees use the enzyme Intervase , the same stuff that is made from yeast that makes your fondant in side your chocolate soft centre. i have some intervase in the fridge if you want to try it,
 
So that's it then, despite the cyberhorrea, it's Ambrosia. :laughing-smiley-014
 
" Ambrosia DOES NOT contain twice as much energy per litre"
that maybe the case but the bees use considerably less energy in handling the stuff, sugar syrup is half water which the bees have to get out plus they have to invert the sugar, ambrosia however is just moved from feeder to comb....easy

as for messing about adding acid and heating.........very dodgy, leave it to the professionals , ambrosia is specifically designed for bees, NOT for baking, if you want inverted sugar contact british sugar......been there done that.

but as i say its up to you
 
Thanks everyone for your help. I have ordered some and will see how it goes. As they are a new nuc hopefully it will help them build up a bit quicker.

Sarah x
 
Have used sugar syrup for 25 years now switched to Ambrosia and Will NEVER go back unless Ambrosia becomes unavailable. Brilliant stuff. Very little stress for me and the bees.....
 
" sugar syrup is half water wh ich the bees have to get out plus they have to invert the sugar, ambrosia however is just moved from feeder to comb....easy

first i do not invert my syrup you mis understood my remarks about how dear ambrosia is , being it is just as sulphuric acid inverted sugar syrup made by german sugar giants

Ambrosia manufacturing is very little different apart from higher HMF from tate and lyle golden syrup plus a little extra sugar and water ( not to be confused with corn syrup though )

At this time of year i feed 1:1 as bees just store 2:1, ambrosia Bee syrup or any fondant rather than make comb)

When i worked at rothampsted in the 1970s no difference was found in feeding fully inverted fructose , glucose/sucrose/fructose mix or straight syrup (cold mixed part sugar and cold inverted sugar ie 2:1) to controlled hives as winter feed, measure against stores, winter survival and Bees weight in spring ,the only difference was with those fed on honey or Honey+10% water a did not fair so well as various sugar feeds and had more dysentery ( then i was just a science student making up the feed not a beek)

As i said in my first post some people think it is the best thing since sliced bread, I do not ,it is just that i prefer a home made wholemeal unsliced loaf not a tesco loaf made of things i do not like such as flour improver e numbers and lots of salt

so i choose sugar 2:1 dissolve at moderate temperature which inverts about 10% with little of no HMF and I add an additives found in honey Vit C which is not in ambrosia , but if you want to believe the commercial hype pushed out by suppliers then use ambrosia or apiinvert which is cheaper and made in the same factory
 
don't belieive the commercial hype !!!! and you were a science student. where do you think the "commercial hype" comes from :)
 
don't belieive the commercial hype !!!! and you were a science student. where do you think the "commercial hype" comes from :)

That would be the marketing men, ref the Co-op saying one thing and doing something a little(maybe alot) different where bees are concerned.
 
Ambrosia and others.

Ambrosia is an excellent product, and anyone who says home made syrup and this product are equivalent plainly have a radically different viewpoint on 'eqivalent' from me. ( No making up work, which costs, and never ever any waste or deterioration win it for me all the time, a feeder not emptied in autumn can just be left and they take it in spring.)

However....history first. Api-Invert is the original, and still by far the most popular Europe wide of these syrups. It was originally made by the German sugar entity of the day. this entity was split up into Nordzucker and Sudzucker, and the bee syrup went with the portfolio that was held by Sudzucker.

Nordzucker wanted a share of that market, so with only a marginal teak to the Api-Invert recipe, they launched Ambrosia. I am not aware of their extent of testing, but for sure the team at Sudzucker have done a LOT of research and have excellent publicity material and 'directions for use' literature available. Nordzuckers literature is comparatively scanty.

Have used at least 100 tonnes of both products over the years and both are excellent and no discernable difference. Both are made from beet sugar entirely btw, so no corn syrup input. Also they are made by enzymatic processes. The poster who said they were acid inverted is wrong, that is 1950's technology long since superceded. In fact ALL the syrups on the market formulated for bee feeding are enzymatically produced. There are at least 10 products available nowadays.

Ambrosia is the best known of these products in the UK and Denmark, due in the main to the marketing efforts of Knud Hvam and his staff plus UK associates, in fact I was a reseller of the stuff in the early days. However price became a serious issue, as trying to sell it on at a profit was hard given that others took in large orders and passed it on at cost. Cost price itself also became an issue as of course, via Denmark, who hold the sole rights to the UK for Ambrosia, there is an extra margin involved. Brilliant product....too many bites at the cherry already.

So, changed over to Api-Invert for a couple of seasons and was able to get factory gate pricing, and immediately saved best part of £80 a tonne, for a product that, marginally higher fructose content apart, is identical to Ambrosia. ( Sudzucker staff have described Ambrosia as a 'knock off' of their product..........oh and btw.they are NOT made in the same factory.)

For the last three years however we have used neither product. We now use Apisuc, a Belgian version similar to both the German products, and saved even more money! Absolutely NO difference discernable in the bees, and we have done side by side trials of four main products simultaneously (Api-Invert, Ambrosia, Apisuc, Tetrapi ) and found only the Tetrapi to be significantly inferior to the others. ( Tetrapi btw is only available purchased through France, but I have been told it is actually made in the UK, unsure of the reliability of that.) IF, and it is a big IF, I had to say which product was best, I would have to say Api-Invert but only by a whisker.

FYI, I have been arranging supplies of Apisuc for others. I am not on here seeking clients please note, just to give info about the true price levels for these types of product. Whole tankers delivered to UK addresses for well under £600 per tonne. Under 60p a kilo. They also do the same range of bee foods sold by others, and have one of the few fondant making plants in Europe ( all fondant is made in only a tiny number of places, mostly in Belgium, and branded with other companies manes). Have visited the factory, met and talked with their researchers, and am greatly impressed with their set up and service. ( Ex Sudzucker staff run the company btw.)

No intention of ever going back to traditional syrup again.
 
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Ambrosia is an excellent product,.

i acknowledge your superior knowledge of the process, my involvement was in the 1970's analyzing nordsucre and sud sucre products for rothampsted and then it was still acid inverted not made using intervase enzyme,

At 60p per kilo,well maybe i would use it but not a current retail supplier prices, so i will continue to use Tate and lyle
 
don't belieive the commercial hype !!!! and you were a science student. where do you think the "commercial hype" comes from :)

:iagree:
Well said, hoisted on their own petard lol
 
Oops

Well perhaps I was a bit quick to recite what I had been told. Your bit about testing the products of both companies in the 1970's sent me off on a bit of history searching as I was sure Nordzucker did not exist back then. One of my contacts in the trade told me a potted history of the German sugar trade, and I took it as gospel.

Turns out I put a bit of rubbish in my last post, as the two entities have always been separate, albeit constantly evolving and not in their current forms until comparatively recently. The info about the feeds and their merits stands though.
 
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Well i am totally dyslexic

Views have changed since the 1970s and so have I and I have long since left my Experimental Officer's job at Rothampsted Physic unit which was sponsored by the now defunct British Sugar corporation for a job that paid real money

but having at that time read papers by Bailey (1966) on toxin in beet sugar and cane sugar i still dont feed silver spoon beet sugar to my bees and stick with Tate and lyle cane sugar even though beet sugar is now said to be clean

And I cannot having been into the loft trace my original working papers or find anything other than an unbacked up references summary to papers on invert sugar and feeding rates and weight gain of bee colonies

Barker and lebenr 1973
Barker and Lebner, 1974
Barker 1976

so have given up and had a G&T

Practical use sometimes bebunks experimental data and a hive is not a test tube so if you and your bee like invert syrup so be it, they are your bees
 
Well perhaps I was a bit quick to recite what I had been told. Your bit about testing the products of both companies in the 1970's sent me off on a bit of history searching as I was sure Nordzucker did not exist back then. One of my contacts in the trade told me a potted history of the German sugar trade, and I took it as gospel.

Turns out I put a bit of rubbish in my last post, as the two entities have always been separate, albeit constantly evolving and not in their current forms until comparatively recently. The info about the feeds and their merits stands though.


but, i have to admit, looking further into the reasearch paeprs later in the 70's, you are correct in that inverted sucrose with intertase in better

Abstract

Invert sugar was prepared by adding beta -fructofuranosidase (invertase) to sugar syrup at 3 IU/g sucrose and after 62 to 65% of the sugar had been hydrolysed a working solution was prepared without additional enzyme. There was no hydroxymethylfurfural in the invert sugar. In trials in 1974-76, when given invert sugar to replace honey as winter feed, bees deposited 10 to 12% more food dry matter (DM) than when sugar syrup was given. Survival of bees was greater with invert sugar, 85% than with sugar syrup, 64%. Bees given replacers had lower body DM, crude protein, fat and ash contents than bees given honey.


so i have to admit my information was rubbish as well
 
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