Advice on splitting please

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello All,
I started bee keeping last year having completed a beginners course with our local association. My nuc did ok but not great with our poor summer. The bees didn't make it through the winter.
I bought an over wintered nuc about 3 weeks ago, which is doing really well. I put it in a 14x12 box and blanked off the additional space below the normal frames. The box is now becoming full.
I would very much like to make splits, ideally two (to give me 3 colonies). I was thinking of buying virgin queens with the idea that they would mate with local drones and give better adaptation to local conditions.
I would appreciate any thoughts on the best way forwards.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Are bees still on National frames in a 14x12 box? How many frames of brood are there and I mean brood right across the whole frame?

 

[WoodenBeam]

Hello All,
I started bee keeping last year having completed a beginners course with our local association. My nuc did ok but not great with our poor summer. The bees didn't make it through the winter.
I bought an over wintered nuc about 3 weeks ago, which is doing really well. I put it in a 14x12 box and blanked off the additional space below the normal frames. The box is now becoming full.
I would very much like to make splits, ideally two (to give me 3 colonies). I was thinking of buying virgin queens with the idea that they would mate with local drones and give better adaptation to local conditions.
I would appreciate any thoughts on the best way forwards.

I’d concentrate on keeping one colony alive before increasing numbers

 

[Erichalfbee]

My nuc did ok but not great with our poor summer. The bees didn't make it through the winter.

Didn't you feed it it ? Was it treated for varroa?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Didn't you feed it it ? Was it treated for varroa?

Yes it was well fed. I gave 2 : 1 syrup in the autumn then fondant all winter. The first block of fondant was quickly taken but the second only a bit.
They were treated with Apiguard in the autumn (though neither trays were fully taken, particularly the second one). I then did an oxalic dribble treatment in early January.
I still had a few bees in March but very few. By April they were all dead. There was loads of stores in the frames and fondant as well.

I bought an over wintered nuc from Abelo which arrived about 3 weeks ago. I decided I wanted to go to 14 x 12 brood boxes (because the standard brood box seemed too small last year). So I put the 6 standard frames from the nuc in with five 14x12 frames with foundation. I filled the gap under the smaller frames with a block of wood.
At the moment I have brood on all frames, though there is still room on the outside of the outermost frames.

I am about to add a super to give more room. I won't use a queen excluder until the bees start using it.

I would like to increase my colonies, ideally to three.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would like to increase my colonies, ideally to three.

What are your thoughts?

I would do a vertical split when they have filled the first super and are into their second. Do a Demaree then take the top box away. I wouldn't split into three this season. Take two colonies through the winter.

 

[ericbeaumont]

wanted to go to 14 x 12 brood boxes (because the standard brood box seemed too small last year

An appealing solution that I chose many years ago to answer the same question; it didn't, so I reverted to multiple deep broods, boxes that you call 'normal'.

A 14x12 gives 41% more brood space than a deep and that increase is often insufficent for prolific queens. What to do then? Add another 14x12? They weigh over 25kg when loaded and so limit flexible brood management.

If you prefer a lighter life and to manage multiple BBs easily, stick to two or three deeps. You cannot get a better or lighter box than the Abelo 11-frame, which gives the crucial bonus of efficient heat & humidity retention lacking in wooden hives.

mate with local drones and give better adaptation to local conditions

Give up on this idea: it is unlikely that York has a closed stock adapted over millenia, and far more likely that the background bee is what most of us deal with: a mix of this and that, giving variable mating results from which we select.

brood on all frames, though there is still room on the outside of the outermost frames.
I am about to add a super to give more room

What % of the frames have brood, and are the outermost frames drawn fully? If not, get the bees to draw comb by moving one or two into the middle of the nest; if two, alternate with drawn combs.

Room for what? Bees & nectar for sure, but don't let the queen run out of laying space, because swarming will follow.

filled the gap under the smaller frames with a block of wood

Have I understood you? Into a 14x12 BB you have put a Deep National nuc, but restricted laying space to DN with blocks of wood? If you want the (limited) benefit of the extra 41%, take off the wood and allow the bees to add comb.

increase my colonies, ideally to three.

By April they were all dead.

Why were they dead? You must observe and deduce and find out why or a pattern of annual death & replacement may arise. Increase to two, and learn to manage them effectively for two or three years.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

An appealing solution that I chose many years ago to answer the same question; it didn't, so I reverted to multiple deep broods, boxes that you call 'normal'.

A 14x12 givess 41% more brood space than a deep and that increase is often insufficent for prolific queens. What to do then? Add another 14x12? They weigh over 25kg when loaded and so limit flexible brood management.

If you prefer a lighter life and to manage multiple BBs easily, stick to two or three deeps. You cannot get a better or lighter box than the Abelo 11-frame, which gives the crucial bonus of efficient heat & humidity retention lacking in wooden hives.


Give up on this idea: it is unlikely that York has a closed stock adapted over millenia, and far more likely that the background bee is what most of us deal with: a mix of this and that, giving variable mating results from which we select.


What % of the frames have brood, and are the outermost frames drawn fully? If not, get the bees to draw comb by moving one or two into the middle of the nest; if two, alternate with drawn combs.

Room for what? Bees & nectar for sure, but don't let the queen run out of laying space, because swarming will follow.


Have I understood you? Into a 14x12 BB you have put a Deep National nuc, but restricted laying space to DN with blocks of wood? If you want the (limited) benefit of the extra 41%, take off the wood and allow the bees to add comb.



Why were they dead? You must observe and deduce and find out why or a pattern of annual death & replacement may arise. Increase to two, and learn to manage them effectively for two or three years.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly. I appreciate it.

 

[Paul_Ward1]

I would do a vertical split when they have filled the first super and are into their second. Do a Demaree then take the top box away. I wouldn't split into three this season. Take two colonies through the winter.

Demaree rather than split board? Could you explain further please? Thanks. Paul

 

[Erichalfbee]

Demaree rather than split board? Could you explain further please? Thanks. Paul

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

 

[Paul_Ward1]

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

I’ve read this previously and I think the question I’m getting to is about the presence of QC. The article seems clear that it’s too late to Demaree for swarm control once QC present and therefore a split is indicated. The OP was talking about a crowded colony with no QC. If there were QC present, would you suggest a split (vertical with opposing entrances) rather than Demaree? Ta

 

[Eyeman]

“A 14x12 gives 41% more brood space than a deep and that increase is often insufficent for prolific queens. What to do then? Add another 14x12? They weigh over 25kg when loaded and so limit flexible brood management.”

A brood box may become honey,pollen or brood bound. Simply move the frames into another colony, start a new nuc or store and or extract the honey.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ve read this previously and I think the question I’m getting to is about the presence of QC. The article seems clear that it’s too late to Demaree for swarm control once QC present and therefore a split is indicated. The OP was talking about a crowded colony with no QC. If there were QC present, would you suggest a split (vertical with opposing entrances) rather than Demaree? Ta

You’re right. Demaree is too late if QCs present do you have to AS.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A 14x12 gives 41% more brood space than a deep and that increase is often insufficent for prolific queens. What to do then?

chuck it on a bonfire and use a proper box to go double brood

 

[Eyeman]

chuck it on a bonfire and use a proper box to go double brood

Just use that brood in other colonies, queen cell starters & nucs. Substitute foundation or drawn comb so plenty of space to lay. I run 14x12 & double national & I enjoy working both.

 

[ericbeaumont]

A brood box may become honey, pollen or brood bound. Simply move the frames into another colony, start a new nuc or store and or extract the honey.

That extra work will solve the lack of space in a 14x12, but it's likely to be a temporary fix and would need to be repeated; if removing brood, the inevitable result is that colony strength would be constrained.

chuck it on a bonfire and use a proper box to go double brood

Multiple BBs give the most flexible system, and no need to remove excess honey, pollen, or brood: just add another box and shuffle the frames. I use a couple of my cedar 14x12s at market, with a clearer board on top or frames inside; gets the honey up off the table and makes a good display.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I use a couple of my cedar 14x12s at market, with a clearer board on top or frames inside; gets the honey up off the table and makes a good display.

 

[Eyeman]

That extra work will solve the lack of space in a 14x12, but it's likely to be a temporary fix and would need to be repeated; if removing brood, the inevitable result is that colony strength would be constrained.

Prepping those QC starters coincides with first wave of brood harvest. Then 6-7 weeks later the second wave of brood harvest to prep nucs for newly mated queens. Managing the brood box is the key to a bumper harvest and controlling swarming.