2 Queens in 1 hive - both DLQ

[buckwyns]

Some more advice please. I have a hive which, going into winter, I found 2 queens, one being the original, the other a new queen and as it was late in the season, I decided to leave them to it. Inspecting this week, I have found that unfortunately they are both drone layers. As the hive still has a lot of bees I have decided to give them a chance by giving them a frame of eggs from another hive, I know everyone will not agree with this but thought I would give it a try. The question is how long should I leave the hive queenless before introducing the frame. Thank you all once again.

 

[galileo]

Dunno what more experienced folk will say but I'd be tempted to pop it in straight away.

The issue would be whether there would be drones to fertilise the new queen they'll make but by the sound of it, you'll have no shortage of those. Count on a few good days in a couple of weeks time and good luck.

 

[Russel]

Some more advice please. I have a hive which, going into winter, I found 2 queens, one being the original, the other a new queen and as it was late in the season, I decided to leave them to it. Inspecting this week, I have found that unfortunately they are both drone layers. As the hive still has a lot of bees I have decided to give them a chance by giving them a frame of eggs from another hive, I know everyone will not agree with this but thought I would give it a try. The question is how long should I leave the hive queenless before introducing the frame. Thank you all once again.

As far as the bees are concerned they are not queenless, you will have to find and remove both queens and dispatch them before you go any further.

 

[Skyhook]

My thoughts would be to remove the queens ASAP, plus any brood. As long as the workers are trying to raise those dwarf drones they are using up their body reserves. With no brrod to raiuse, they can survive a surprisingly long time.

If they are strong, give them some eggs to raise a queen from. If not, they are probably not worth wasting a frame of eggs on- better to shake them out and let them re-inforce the other colonies that are trying to build up in this cold spring.


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[jenkinsbrynmair]

My thoughts would be to remove the queens ASAP, plus any brood. As long as the workers are trying to raise those dwarf drones they are using up their body reserves. With no brrod to raiuse, they can survive a surprisingly long time.

If they are strong, give them some eggs to raise a queen from. If not, they are probably not worth wasting a frame of eggs on- better to shake them out and let them re-inforce the other colonies that are trying to build up in this cold spring.


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[Silly Bee]

My thoughts would be to remove the queens ASAP, plus any brood. As long as the workers are trying to raise those dwarf drones they are using up their body reserves. With no brrod to raiuse, they can survive a surprisingly long time.

If they are strong, give them some eggs to raise a queen from. If not, they are probably not worth wasting a frame of eggs on- better to shake them out and let them re-inforce the other colonies that are trying to build up in this cold spring.


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If they are dwarf drones they won't have been laid by the Queen. (I stand to be corrected)

Find the queens, knock them on the head, put eggs in, and reduce the number of drones that have been capped, (opportunity to see what the varroa count is)

 

[Polyanwood]

Usually workers won't start laying if there are DLQs... but it is true that stunted drones can be laid by workers.

the main thing is you don't want any more drones, you want workers, so you want rid of the queens. For what it is worth, open brood does suppress laying workers, so putting the frames of eggs and open brood in from another colony is all good

 

[Skyhook]

If they are dwarf drones they won't have been laid by the Queen. (I stand to be corrected)

I believe you are wrong on that- any unfertilized egg laid in a worker cell will become a dwarf drone.

OK, you can sit down now.


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[oliver90owner]

If they are dwarf drones they won't have been laid by the Queen. (I stand to be corrected)

You are wrong and you are corrected. Skyhook has explained it precisely.

 

[Silly Bee]

ok

 

[Russel]

I believe you are wrong on that- any unfertilized egg laid in a worker cell will become a dwarf drone.

OK, you can sit down now.


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That being the case then all drone laid on worker foundation will be dwarf drone and only those laid on drone foundation, brace etc comb will be normal regardless who the mother is?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That being the case then all drone laid on worker foundation will be dwarf drone and only those laid on drone foundation, brace etc comb will be normal regardless who the mother is?

I think in the balanced hive the worker (who ultimately control the queen) enlarge cells when they require more drones; the queen, on finding a larger (drone) cell lays an unfertilised egg as she knows the cell is the right size for raising a drone. On finding a worker cell the queen lays a worker (fertilised) egg she wouldn't lay a drone egg in a worker cell unless by accident or has ran out of juice. Thus in a Q+ hive - drone eggs don't get laid in worker cells.
Laying workers however, on finding a worker cell are attempting to lay a 'worker egg' but are missing the vital ingredient thus a 'drone egg' in the wrong sized cell.

 

[Russel]

I think in the balanced hive the worker (who ultimately control the queen) enlarge cells when they require more drones; the queen, on finding a larger (drone) cell lays an unfertilised egg as she knows the cell is the right size for raising a drone. On finding a worker cell the queen lays a worker (fertilised) egg she wouldn't lay a drone egg in a worker cell unless by accident or has ran out of juice. Thus in a q- hive - drone eggs don't get laid in worker cells.
Laying workers however, on finding a worker cell are attempting to lay a 'worker egg' but are missing the vital ingredient thus a 'drone egg' in the wrong sized cell.

Thanks Jenk's, I realised after I posted that I should have mentioned the otherwise enlarged cells.

 

[oliver90owner]

Yet another case of not reading the post! Skyhook specifically typed 'worker cells'. He did not mention worker foundation - which is totally a different matter and absolutely nothing to do with dwarf drones.

 

[Finman]

The question is how long should I leave the hive queenless before introducing the frame. Thank you all once again.

It is better to join bees to another hive. No point to start rear emergency queen this time of year. It takes a month before it start to lay and then 4 weeks
that new bees start to act in the hive. It is July then. When new bees emerge, the colony has not much bees.

 

[Skyhook]

That being the case then all drone laid on worker foundation will be dwarf drone and only those laid on drone foundation, brace etc comb will be normal regardless who the mother is?

Correct.

I think in the balanced hive the worker (who ultimately control the queen) enlarge cells when they require more drones;

This could be misconstrued. Cells are not enlarged, they are built to drone size. Workers will sometimes tear down a section of comb to provide an empty space in which to build drone comb. What they will not do is convert a worker cell to a drone cell on finding a drone egg in it.

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[galileo]

What they will not do is convert a worker cell to a drone cell on finding a drone egg in it.
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Are workers able to discern whether or not an egg is fertile, by means other than reference to the size of cell in which it is laid?

 

[Skyhook]

Are workers able to discern whether or not an egg is fertile, by means other than reference to the size of cell in which it is laid?

They can not only tell if its fertile, but whether it was laid by the queen, or a sister worker, or a half-sister worker: all by smell.

Did I mention, bees are amazing...

 

[galileo]

They can not only tell if its fertile, but whether it was laid by the queen, or a sister worker, or a half-sister worker: all by smell.

Did I mention, bees are amazing...

Wow, Skyhook, that IS amazing... respect!