2 queens 2 swarms 1 hive?

[thepliedes]

Peeps

Can you tell me, if you collected two small swarms from an original source hive, can you drop them into 1 nuc box? I know there will be two queens but can surely one would kill the other and you would have 1 queen then in the colony (presumably the strongest one).

 

[justme]

Ive heard of throwing 3 plus swarms together, confusion sorts them out. With 2 from same hive I would imagine it would depend on how far apart in time they issued. If within a few a hours (how likely is that?) there may just be the issue of fighting queens. If longer you could also have fighting bees. with fighting queens, both could be injured and left no good.
So I guess, if you could find 1 queen and remove then spray both with something harmless but smelly then you could merge them together. Then decide which queen to keep, new 1 or original 1, remove other and either do the same or unite with newspaper.
Then again, what do I know? Someone more experienced will come along in a minute:.)

 

[Silly Bee]

Put a Horseley board between them, and see which is the best, or make two colonies when they get working.

 

[oliver90owner]

two small swarms

A bit subjective. A very small swarm to me is one that would be at home in a nuc for just a few days. A tiny cast might be the size of a tennis ball.

Yes. just do it if that is all the kit you have.

If they will both fit to a National 5 framed nuc, they are hardly worth worrying about (individually) at this time of the year.

 

[dickbowyer]

I dumped two swarms into a nuc last week and left them overnight. Next morning was greeted by loads of dead bees outside entrance and on opening found a yellow marked (not mine!) queen on a frame and another being balled on the OMF. Rescued the queen being balled and put her into a mating hive in a cage plugged with candy. 8 days later both queens are laying on two frames. Not sure I will mix swarms again after this experience.

 

[beeno]

I dumped two swarms into a nuc last week and left them overnight. Next morning was greeted by loads of dead bees outside entrance and on opening found a yellow marked (not mine!) queen on a frame and another being balled on the OMF. Rescued the queen being balled and put her into a mating hive in a cage plugged with candy. 8 days later both queens are laying on two frames. Not sure I will mix swarms again after this experience.

Thanks for having the courage to post the above Dick... That's what I have been taught by a 'commercial beek' and an ex-bee inspector not to do for the reasons you have stated lots of dead bees and one dead queen. Promise me that you will post this every time the question comes up. Sometimes I think forums are a hindrance rather than an asset to good beekeeping practice! Yes, I am a two hive beekeeper + an aspiring nuc operator.

 

[oliver90owner]

I dumped two swarms into a nuc last week and left them overnight.

Not anywhere near the same scenario. Two clearly different origins, so the likelihood of scrapping (without some precautions taken) would be high. Two queens in the one box is a recipe for the demise of one of them, that is for certain in any ongoing scenario, other than supercedure.

There is a subtle difference between dropping two swarms from the same hive into the one box, than adding a swarm from a different origin at the time or later (or a further swarm from the same origin much later), per egs. One has to consider the facts at the time of the event, and make a rational judgement before implementing any rash decision.

'Act in haste, repent at leisure' comes to mind, but it may not be appropriate in this instance.

A case of follow the rules implicitly (for a new beek) and there won't be much to go wrong. Consider the alternatives only when more experienced, or ask for relevant advice from an experienced source.

 

[beeno]

two swarms from same colony

I have been advised by a commercial beekeeper that two swarms from the same colony will soon smell differently as the queens will have different pheromones and therefore the bees will fight. I have also been advised by an ex-beeinspector that he has frequently joined three swarms without any argy bargy because three queens causes confusion amongst the workers. What are peoples real life experience!

 

[Outlander]

Last Sunday I went and picked up a cluster of bees about the size of two tennis balls. They had been left behind after some ***** just grabbed the majority had could not be bothered to do the job properly. At the time I nor my friend had any spare equipment apart form two ply swarm boxes so the only reason I agreed to collect them was because a 13 month old baby had been stung.

As said did not have any spare equipment so had to introduce them to a small nuc colony using air freshener, something I never thought I would do but when needs must. This was not done though until myself a and my friend where sure there was no queen in this cluster. Many people said oh it sounds as though you have the queen and if you introduce them it would be bad. Though I have not been keeping bees long I have noticed on the swarms I have picked up and cluster collected from other peoples grab and go such as this one any bees left will cluster around the foot print pheromone that was left on be it a branch or post this does not mean that there is a queen amongst them.

After checking the odd frames that some bees were on then separating small groups from one box to another no queen was found. Two quick puffs of spray one into the 14x12 nuc and the other into the swarm box then tipped cluster onto top bars of nuc. Closed up, lots of buzzing but think this was because they had been disturbed towards dusk as they were settling down. Next day three dead bees outside of hive and normal activity. Opened them up a few days later original nuc queen spotted and both sets of bees working together as if they had been from the same colony.

Would I use spray again? Yes in that situation but if had the equipment would use news paper method.

 

[MandF]

I have been advised by a commercial beekeeper that two swarms from the same colony will soon smell differently as the queens will have different pheromones and therefore the bees will fight. I have also been advised by an ex-beeinspector that he has frequently joined three swarms without any argy bargy because three queens causes confusion amongst the workers. What are peoples real life experience!

Mine is the same as the commercial beekeeper advice, a swarm will soon smell different enough to cause a problem if united with the original.

The main thing with uniting anything is to mix the pheromones enough so there is not any distinctive pheromone, to delay the mixing of bees so pheromones have a chance to mix, or distracting the bees long enough so by the time they stop being distracted, the pheromones have mingled. There is also the 4th option of masking the pheromones outlander mentions, with air freshener etc.

In that sense it is easier to dump 3 swarms together, as you have 3 sets of pheromones being mixed up. One way to unite is to shake 2 hives out onto a taranov board and run them in together.

I guess the inspector might have been willing to let the queens fight it out so (hopefully) the strongest survives.