Brood Pattern and Queen Quality

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SDM said:
But Michael is saying that this time honoured technique ultimately does nothing and any rebound is temporary at best .
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That holds good if the problem is with the queen but if it's due to other reasons, (e.g. a late nuc made up a bit under par) then a boost can get them going so as there's no difference by the time the main flow gets going.
 
I agree, i think it comes down to not being able to reliably decide the queen is the issue until equalizing has failed.
Mind you i suspect i tolerate more variation in my colonies performance whilst im still increasing hive numbers a queen heading a colony yielding 1/3rd of the best would get to see out the season just because she represents another colony. When numbers are more stable and im producing a real surplus of queens I'll probably be less tolerant
 
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Eyeman said:
Adding brood has no influence on evaluating which queen to use for breeding. Just need to keep some records. Shirely you should know that?
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If you (or anyone) selected a queen for propagation based on an increased performance by adding brood from support colonies is fooling themselves.

Obligatory rebuttal: Don't call me Shirley! ;-)
 
B+. said:
If you (or anyone) selected a queen for propagation based on an increased performance by adding brood from support colonies is fooling ;-)
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Do you think that somebody is so fool, that do not understand it? But I can estimate how much the queen is able to lay, and it has nothing meaning then when I added brood and found this good queen and good layer.
 
Finman said:
Do you think that somebody is so fool, that do not understand it? But I can estimate how much the queen is able to lay, and it has nothing meaning then when I added brood and found this good queen and good layer.
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I don't know. Ask Eyeman. He seemed to think it was reasonable to add brood and for it to have no effect. If that were true, why do it?
Of course, it isn't true....and that is why I responded the way I did (see https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=657985&postcount=23)
 
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B+. said:
I don't know. Ask Eyeman. He seemed to think it was reasonable to add brood and for it to have no effect. If that were true, why do it?
Of course, it isn't true....and that is why I responded the way I did (see https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=657985&postcount=23)
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Adding brood makes possible that a new queen can show how good it is. If a good queen is in a small colony, it cannot lay more than it can. But it may happen that, good seeming queen cannot any more add laying when colony grows.

In early full size colony (6 boxes) swarming tendency can apper too in swarmimg time.

It depends how much you have good colonies to select.

Lets say.... I have bought 4 buckfast queens previous summer and I want to see, are they really good enough to be mother queen. Last summer I had such situation, and none of those four seemed good.
.
 
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Finman said:
Adding brood makes possible that a new queen can show how good it is. If a good queen is in a small colony, it cannot lay more than it can. But it may happen that, good seeming queen cannot any more add laying when colony grows.

In early full size colony (6 boxes) swarming tendency can apper too in swarmimg time.

It depends how much you have good colonies to select.

Lets say.... I have bought 4 buckfast queens previous summer and I want to see, are they really good enough to be mother queen. Last summer I had such situation, and none of those four seemed good.
.
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The performance you observe will not be the performance of the queen but of the donor queen(s).
If you are adding brood, they have no genetic link to the queen so how can their performance represent the performance of that queen? It makes no sense.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. You will never convince me that adding brood from donors tells you anything about the recipient (except, possibly, that she isn't worth propagating).
 
B+. said:
. You will never convince me that adding brood from donors tells you anything about the recipient (except, possibly, that she isn't worth propagating).
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I do not need to convince you. I do what I do. When I add brood, I make the 4 frame colony to get perhaps 100 kg honey and its
value is 1000 €.

When I add brood in spring, I have no idea what that queen will do. I only know that it is vain without adding brood. I see in late summer what it has done.

I know that 4 frame colony cannot get yield, if I let it be alone.
.
 
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Finman said:
I do not need to convince you. I do what I do. When I add brood, I make the 4 frame colony to get perhaps 100 kg honey and its
value is 1000 €.

When I add brood in spring, I have no idea what is that queen. I only know that it is vain without adding brood. I see in late summer what it has done.

.
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I have no doubt that you can produce lots of honey by adding lots of brood from support colonies, but that wasn't the question (see post #23).
However, if that's what you choose to do, I am sure nothing I say will change your mind.
 
B+. said:
If you (or anyone) selected a queen for propagation based on an increased performance by adding brood from support colonies is fooling themselves.

Obligatory rebuttal: Don't call me Shirley! ;-)
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if you keep a record of what you've done then it's pretty straight forward when it comes to choosing which queens to use as breeders. I wouldnt automatically exclude a queen because I had to boost her colony in the spring- depends on how her colony performed in previous years.
 
Eyeman said:
if you keep a record of what you've done then it's pretty straight forward when it comes to choosing which queens to use as breeders. I wouldnt automatically exclude a queen because I had to boost her colony in the spring- depends on how her colony performed in previous years.
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It is far from straight-forward. That is why it isn't done. However, you do what you think is right. I've said my piece and, if you aren't convinced by the reasons I gave above, I doubt you will be by anything else I said.
 
B+. said:
I have no doubt that you can produce lots of honey by adding lots of brood from support colonies, but that wasn't the question (see post #23).
However, if that's what you choose to do, I am sure nothing I say will change your mind.
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I am doing not at all what you write, but you just keep your funny ideas like before

I do not add lots of brood from support colonies. You know, so you ruin best colonies. I see that you have never done this.

You are a slave of breeding procedures.
 
B+. said:
I have no doubt that you can produce lots of honey by adding lots of brood from support colonies.
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Support lots of brood.... Such hive does not bring honey. Foragers bring honey, not brood.
 
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I'm just wondering why all your neighbouring countries are exporting queens while UK is importing...
I think this thread may answer that...
 
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Finman said:
Adding brood makes possible that a new queen can show how good it is. If a good queen is in a small colony, it cannot lay more than it can. But it may happen that, good seeming queen cannot any more add laying when colony grows.
.
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This may only prove that the queen in the small colony can lay a good amount of eggs once she got the work force, but it does not prove that the queen have any other good traits. It's the donor colonies workers who are doing the job and it is of her you may breed!
 
Hunajavelho said:
This may only prove that the queen in the small colony can lay a good amount of eggs once she got the work !
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Idea is not to prove anything. Idea is to get the colony so strong that hive can make a real yield that summer. No one is making breeding queen from twist size colony of April.

People buy imported queens in spring to get queens. They do not want prove anything.

B+ wants to see that every queen has its place in the pedigree. I do not want any pedigrees.
 
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Finman said:
Oh dear.... From where these smart ideas come from...... From B+...
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oh dear...From where do these unsmart ideas come from... From Santa Claus?

B+. Is not the only one with smart ideas. Same ideas have been used for improving all livestock.
 
Finman said:
Idea is not to prove anything. Idea is to get the colony so strong that hive can make a real yield that summer.

People buy imported queens in spring to get queens. They do not want prove anything.
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That is the issue, you should be asking why is that colony weak and is there something I can do in the future to avoid a similar situation. Breeding with goals is one thing you can do.

As for queens in spring, no need to buy or import. You can overwinter two queens easily in one hive body. I have been overwintering (here in Finalnd) two queens side by side in a 10-12 frame langstroth hive body, 4 or 5 frames per queen seperated by a solid board. Or you can do as M.Palmer.
 
Hunajavelho said:
B+. Is not the only one with smart ideas. Same ideas have been used for improving all livestock.
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Absolutely right.
I only do what is rational and necessary.
I don't understand why some people have so much difficulty in understanding what I do. It only takes a little knowledge of honeybee biology and a basic knowledge of statistics. I think, perhaps, some people would rather argue than agree when something is right.
 
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