When to unite - inept beginner!

[Alleree]

Hello
I've visited the ladies today and was pleased to see that the hive that was left after I removed the queen as an artificial swarm five weeks ago has at last got frames of brood and fresh eggs. (Last week it was full of empty frames, irritated bees and a bit of pollen and nectar so I took a frame with a few eggs from the other hive.)
My other hive has the original queen who is on her way out and I've been expecting her to be superceded. She's at least two seasons old and apart from the artificial swarm, she has plopped out onto the nearby holly tree at least 4 times in the last six weeks only to be bundled back into her hive and kept there with promises of syrup. (I got her with a swarm in April and that was the second time she'd swarmed this year.)
I would like to combine these two colonies - the old queen's is small due to her poor laying rate - but don't know when to do it. I would rather treat and feed one colony than two but don't want to upset them as they are working well at the moment and they've wasted alot of foraging time through swarming this summer. I intend to squish the old queen and use the newspaper method. Advice please!

 

[drstitson]

firstly - when you do the deed - freeze the old queen or plop in a tube of alcohol - that way you can use her as a swarm lure next year.

i'd unite now so you get the advantage of two lots of foragers for the one hive for last few weeks of flow then all should be settled by time to treat.

 

[Poly Hive]

Sooner the better.

PH

 

[Alleree]

Thank you!

 

[oliver90owner]

For the benefit of others reading this thread.

I might consider that two laying queens may produce more bees than one, so would delay unification.

On the other hand you only have wo colonies and any further queen problem would be more easily sorted earlier than later in the season.

For those with a few rather than two, I would go the former route. In this case, I am minded to agree with The Doc and PH, doubting there will be too much of a honey surplus - but that would be a bonus if it happens.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

rab - i wasn't implying an increased harvest - just more nectar input to the hive itself.

 

[richardbees]

" when you do the deed - freeze the old queen or plop in a tube of alcohol "

Can you enlarge on this - does it really work?

rich

 

[enrico]

Go for it ..... tomorrow!
E

 

[Alleree]

I'm also interested in what you mean by using her as a swarm lure - I don't want other people's swarms but would it work to attract mine into an alternative hive if they decide to go. (I'm hoping to requeen with a new Buckfast type queen ready for next season as these are too regular swarmers!)

 

[Alleree]

Not expecting any honey this season anyway (might stick a finger in the corner of a frame for a taste!) I'll be pleased if they can produce enough to set them up for the winter and have Ambrosia on order to reinforce their work (BKA bulk buy.)

 

[drstitson]

ron hoskins squishes his bees on a single fence post in his apiary. more often then not that becomes staging post for swarms.

at very least squish on old frames intended for bait hive OR on the landing board of same.

likewise the work on drones range over water involved fixing a queen to a mast. for years later it attracted interest by bees despite exposure to the elements.

NB most swarms choose a site AWAY from home apiary BUt anywhere that a swarm has been before WILL have increased chance of attracting more.

see the old thread re the pickled queens on ebay.

i would imagine that the wise advise about handling chili peppers is followed after squishing queens - don't want undesirable consequences!!! LOL.

 

[richardbees]

drstitson,

Thanks

richard

 

[Hebeegeebee]

i'd unite now so you get the advantage of two lots of foragers for the one hive for last few weeks of flow then all should be settled by time to treat.

A large colony will get proportionally more honey than a small one.

 

[victor meldrew]

A large colony will get proportionally more honey than a small one.

A good job Roger Patterson is talking to himself on the other side or he would be all over you

VM

 

[oliver90owner]

A large colony will get proportionally more honey than a small one.

Have to disagree with this.

Lets look at a couple of examples.

Small colony - no honey (= zero)

Colony twice as big will get twice as much, will it? Twice zero is still zero. Don't think so.

Therefore the proportionality does not hold true. There is an intersection, if you graph size versus honey is produced. If the graph is a straight line it will conform to the equation y = mx + c where m is the gradient of the line and c is the intercept at the y axis. c will be a constant and have a negative value.

In this case the equation only holds true for zero and positive values of y

Of course it is never quite as simplistic as this, even, because the amount of brood will affect the colony nectar needs. But it is definitely not a linear relaionship!!

RAB

 

[victor meldrew]

A large colony will get proportionally more honey than a small one.

Have to disagree with this.

Lets look at a couple of examples.

Small colony - no honey (= zero)

Colony twice as big will get twice as much, will it? Twice zero is still zero. Don't think so.

Therefore the proportionality does not hold true. There is an intersection, if you graph size versus honey is produced. If the graph is a straight line it will conform to the equation y = mx + c where m is the gradient of the line and c is the intercept at the y axis. c will be a constant and have a negative value.

In this case the equation only holds true for zero and positive values of y

Of course it is never quite as simplistic as this, even, because the amount of brood will affect the colony nectar needs. But it is definitely not a linear relaionship!!

RAB

Roger uses single brood (BS) and selects for small colony size plus best honey production !
Italian bees apis melifica lingusta have a reputation for turning income into brood!

VM

 

[oliver90owner]

Your point of quoting me VM?

Can't see ANY connection with your post.

 

[Alleree]

You lot squabble among yourselves about the non-existent honey!!!
All I know is my old rickety queen will be having a nice sleep in a matchbox in the freezer by the end of this week!
Thanks!

 

[victor meldrew]

Your point of quoting me VM?

Can't see ANY connection with your post.

Connection is agreement with your assessment of the large small colony situation .
Must you always reserve the right to talk down to mere mortals?
Have a day off! I'm sure being the font of all knowledge is wearying
VM

 

[Hebeegeebee]

To answer the criticism to my post - all I can suggest is to read Yates' Study Notes. Page 68. I quote:-

"It is a well known observation that a strong colony will collect more surplus than two weak ones.... In general the honey produced by a colony is directly proportional to the size of the colony when the colony size is above 25,000 bees.

Size of colony vs honey production in kg. (NZ study).

10,000 bees. 4 kg
20,000 bees. 14 kg
30,000 bees, 23 kg
40,000 bees, 32 kg
50,000 bees 41 kg.

Yates also suggests that to combine late means that you have a colony that is too large for optimal wintering conditions.

(I beleive Roger is blocked from looking at this forum, but if he does, in order to keep the peace, the above numbers may need to be scaled back for Rogers small colony bees).

Adam