When to take insulation off?

[mbc]

Huge old oaks with bee holes in them have enormous thermal density. They also produce theri own heat ( at least while they have leaves - leaves=brood, no leaves= no brood ?) . I dont think sap freazes even in the coldest winters.
Just a few thoughts on insulation/thermoregulation of our little friends for the dozens of millions of years they coped without us and our hives - polystyrene, straw, wattle and dawb or finest western red cedar

 

[drstitson]

remember - before beeks interfered in UK we had native black AMM bees that could forage in rain and were adapted to our climate. Our modern foreign strains MAY need help in UK.

 

[Finman]

remember - before beeks interfered in UK we had native black AMM bees that could forage in rain and were adapted to our climate. Our modern foreign strains MAY need help in UK.

Once upon a time...

We had native black bees too. They foraged about 20 kg honey per hive.
Italians work only in sunshine and they get 120 kg per hive.

Your "native" bee almost extincted in white island disease. Foreign bees saved the beekeeping.

Englishmen delivered that "Native Black Devil" to many continents but no one nurse them any more.

That long that

Post Scriptup: you had not mesh floors 20 years ago and Mega ventilation

.

 

[Finman]

They also produce theri own heat ( at least while they have leaves - leaves=brood, no leaves= no brood ?) .

In my country all trees will frozen and none produce their own heat.

 

[nonstandard]

To try and get back on track.

I have two hies which i opened last week to treat with dribbled oxalic acid, both have insulation and still have plenty of stores by weight and visual inspection while treating.

One hive the bees were well down in the combs and in the other they were spread across the top of the frames, both hives are 14x12 and took 20 litres of syrup each in the autumn.

Colonies will all behave differently, I would leave the insulation on until winter is definitely over and continue to feed fondant.

 

[Poly Hive]

Why take off the insulation at all? Given the above.

PH

 

[Finman]

Why take off the insulation at all? Given the above.

PH

Yes

I have the same system a year around.
I do not want to keep douple furnitures in the hive.

If the hive is hot, bees ventilate. Normaly they driep up nectar with wing ventilation. They need wing ventilation about during 2 months in a year.

 

[sleepingbear]

Hello everyone,

This isn't really directly answering the original question but it does help when discussing the issue of insulation.......the first thing to bear in mind is that bees do not eat more stores because it is colder or if they are on an OMF. I know that sounds completely against all things we would consider common sense but that is becasue we are mammals and they are not!!

Bees regulate the cluster temp through tightness of cluster (tighter = warmer). When it is colder, they are less active around the hive (as they are tightly clustering) and therefore consume less stores. When winter temperatures are above normal, they consume more stores because they are more active.

Hope that helps?

 

[Finman]

Hello everyone,

the first thing to bear in mind is that bees do not eat more stores because it is colder or if they are on an OMF.?

You are wrong. That is the reason why it sounds odd. In very cold the cluster first restrict and still in colder it expands.

In uninsulated hive the colony eates 50% more than in insulated.

Small colonies spend more energy and produde more heat/bee and that is why they gut will be filled and they get easily dysentry. These things has been researched many times.

Bees regulate the cluster temp through tightness of cluster (tighter = warmer).
When it is colder, they are less active around the hive (as they are tightly clustering) and therefore consume less stores.?

Nonsence. They regulate by eating sugar/honey. .

.?

When winter temperatures are above normal, they consume more stores because they are more active.?

Wrong again

Hope that helps?

No hope

It seems that you have invented yourself those ideas, because reseaches and long experiment does not support you.

 

[oliver90owner]

Sleeingbear,

On your hypotheses, the colder the winter, the less stores required. I think not. Have to be with Finman on this one. You are talking rubbish.

At the same time it is not necessarily the winter temperatures that defeat he bees' will to survive, but other factors such as strain of bee.

Certainly, as Finman has questioned your suggestions, the cluster cannot continue to contract in size, the colder it gets. The internal temperature of the hive must be affected by the food eaten (the laws of science). On your system the bees should eat more and more as they continue on an upward temperature spiral. No, there has to be a balance between bees, temperature, volume of cluster, etc. No individual bee can withstand lower temperatures than around eight Celsius so the cluster must maintain that as a minimum. So whether we are mammals or not has little to do with bees in winter. They too have to regulate their temperature within a certain range, as they do not hibernate - any more than we do.

I would be very interested in what you mean by 'above normal'. Normal, by definition is the average, determined over a wide time-span? That means that normal for northern scotland is different than normal for the south west of England. That in itself creates a little difficulty. It means that bees in colder colder conditions will consume the same amount of stores as long as their temperature is normal?

So, what should we do? Feed absolutely huge amounts of stores, so they will never run out? Sorree, but it doesn't work like that.

RAB

 

[sleepingbear]

hi guys (or girls?)

please see quote...

"In mild weather the bees can break their cluster many times during the winter, enabling them to reach food anywhere in the hive. However, when the bees are more active they consume more stores than if they were kept inactive by the cold."
Clive de Bruyn., (2008) Practical Beekeeping. Marlborough: The Crowood Press limited

On another note, I kind of thought that the purpose of these forums was to swop thoughts, photos, ideas etc in a sociable way and let people who read it make their own minds up about how they want to 'keep' their bees? I feel that neither of the above two responses follow this basic etiquette.

I wonder to myself would you say I was talking 'rubbish' and 'nonsense' directly to my face (or indeed somebody else's face) without first politely questioning a person's thoughts/musings if it was the first time you had met them?

I am willing to bet not, but then only you two would really know the answer to that.

Overall, I am not overly delighted by the way in which you articulated your responses and I hope you will consider your responses more maturely in future, whether or not you agree with what I have actually written.

 

[Arfermo]

This petty tortuous bickering is getting nowhere.

The UK typically has WET cool winters. BUT dank mild UK weather is a different kettle of fish.

Not really. The bees know how to adapt as they have done over the millenia and will continue to do so and you do not have the slightest bit of evidence to say otherwise.

 

[rae]

please see quote...

"In mild weather the bees can break their cluster many times during the winter, enabling them to reach food anywhere in the hive. However, when the bees are more active they consume more stores than if they were kept inactive by the cold."

I think you are confusing different aspects of bee behaviour - but it is common to all animals that use a form of hibernation.

An animal hibernates so that it can get though cold conditions without using food that is scarce. Whether you are a bear or a bee, there is no food to forage in winter, so you lay down stores and go to sleep. If the bees were fully active, then they would tear though all of their stores by December.

So they cluster - at one level you are right, by clustering they use fewer stores. However, there is also a minimum level of energy required to keep the cluster at an acceptable temperature - essentially it is a sphere cooling from the outside surface. So the colder the hive is, the more energy (food) that must be put in to maintain temperature. Sure, the bees will tighten the cluster (increase the volume/surface area ratio), but when in a tight cluster, drops in temperature lead to more stores being consumed. The colder the winter, the more stores will be used. Note that the bees are in tight cluster as soon as the temperature is below about 7C - so any drops below that will result in greater energy consumption.

What does this mean for a beek?

- Bees in a constant moderately cold winter will probably be fine
- Bees in very cold winters may need feeding
- Bees in a fluctuating winter (cold, warm, cold) are more likely to need feeding as they keep breaking the cluster.
- Bees in a warm winter will get through the most stores as they will be out of the cluster all the time, but with nothing to forage.

 

[Finman]

What does this mean for a beek?

- Bees in a constant moderately cold winter will probably be fine
- Bees in very cold winters may need feeding
- Bees in a fluctuating winter (cold, warm, cold) are more likely to need feeding as they keep breaking the cluster.
- Bees in a warm winter will get through the most stores as they will be out of the cluster all the time, but with nothing to forage.

Rae, you explanation of bees hibernating was splended but these conclusions goes another in our climate

* constant moderately cold - there is no such weather or climate. In cellar wintering it is possible. Cellar must be dark, temp under +7C, dark and machine ventilation.

* in very cold winter you cannot feed bees. You must use insulated boxes, give them 20 kg sugar and let hem be in peace. After cleansing flight you scehk, how much they have food.

* before clensing flight the hive start brood rearing and it rise up its core temp from 23C to 36 C.

* after wintering the cluster may be quite loose, but when brood area grows, the cluster will be tighly around the brood area. But consumption is high.

 

[drstitson]

arfermo

"The bees know how to adapt as they have done over the millenia and will continue to do so"

i could not agree more. HOWEVER the bees adapted to UK climate over millennia were pure AMM. However, for the past 150 years or so we have replaced AMM with strains adapted to other climates. These will require tailored care to help them survive in particular situations - what finman does is perfect for Italians in Finland. What we do is "best" for mongrels/imports in UK.

You wouldn't suggest introducing cerana to finland and expecting it them survive unaided would you despite the fact they have been around for millenia!!!!

 

[Finman]

.
Bees have never adapted to Finland. They were imported 150 years ago. So they went to America, Australia and to Asia.

We have not tree holes here where bees can live or even tree big enough.


Adaptation of honeybees = selection by queen breeders has been made now by human.

Honey bee is now more and more domesticated. As you know, Africanized honey bee is too hard job to domesticate.

 

[drstitson]

finman - that's exactly what i was getting at - it is perfectly acceptable to say that bees are adapted to those climates in which they are naturally found.

Us beeks have to support bees to greater or lesser extent to keep them anywhere else!

 

[Finman]

Us beeks have to support bees to greater or lesser extent to keep them anywhere else!

Bees have not yet adapted to live thousand hives per hectare density in California.
They are starving and suffering. - Wintering in warm climate. They are wondering, what is happening to our bees?

Every white has 4 hives.

 

[Finman]

.
California wintering

Forecast now day 75F = 24C, night 50F = 10C

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/channel?section=weather/forecast&id=6650542

Bees are flying and searching food

 

[oliver90owner]

the first thing to bear in mind is that bees do not eat more stores because it is colder or if they are on an OMF. I know that sounds completely against all things we would consider common sense but that is becasue we are mammals and they are not!!

I wonder to myself would you say I was talking 'rubbish' and 'nonsense' directly to my face

The forum is read by all sorts and that includes a lot of newbies. The first para above, which is very misleading, needed prompt and decisive responses to make sure that it is not digested and learned by those new readers as fact.

On the second point, I would. I would certainly ask for the justification behind the proposed offerings, which may not be forthcoming on a forum like this. I would also expect someone promulgating such 'supposed facts' to justify and explain the reasons at the time of posting. That thought process would possibly demonstrate the inadequacies of the premise and the post would never take place. Ever decreasing circle?

An analogy to explain your misconception might be to consider water at zero Celsius. It can exist as liquid or solid - agreed?. The liquid version, although at precisely the same temperature will require a great deal more energy to exist than the solid - Latent heat of fusion. Yes? With me? Same temperature, different energy requirements!

Right, lets look at bees at the same temperature, either clustered or not (in the case of not clustered, we could say doing physical exercise - running around the combs per eg). The second case here would obviously require much more energy than sitting still (this even works for mammals, including Humans). So whatever the temperature might be is it not naturally expected that more food (energy) is required when not clustered? Seems like very basic science.

I think that below a certain temperature all bees will be clustered, so the 'walking round the hive' is fairly immaterial below that temperature.

So, lets sit all our bees perfectly still and slowly reduce the temperature further.

Your cluster will simply contract and contract (and presumably eventually disappear?), (and eat less food?) but retain that eight degrees at the surface and survive perfectly well.
My cluster contracts initially as the temperature falls but then cannot continue to contract as the temperature reduces further, but they do use more energy from their food store to regulate their temperature so that the outer bees do not perish. My cluster also survives.

Time here is not a factor in that it can be any and every (sensible) period anyone wishes to choose.

Who would you think makes the more sense? Who would you think talks rubbish?

RAB