What happens in a Demareed colony?

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I realise I don't understand the Demaree method. Can someone please answer a couple of questions that I don't see covered anywhere (and I have read about it a lot). I mean, I understand the theory, and what to do, but what happens inside the hive?

We separate the flying bees from the hive bees, and the young bees are up top, with no entrance. How do they get water? Air, come to that? Can they regulate temperature on a hot day? I read that as the brood cells empty, they are back-filled with nectar. Where does that come from? Is the "separation" of the two basically notional? In which case, why does it work?

So many questions: can anyone help?

 

[YorkshireBees]

I realise I don't understand the Demaree method. Can someone please answer a couple of questions that I don't see covered anywhere (and I have read about it a lot). I mean, I understand the theory, and what to do, but what happens inside the hive?

We separate the flying bees from the hive bees, and the young bees are up top, with no entrance. How do they get water? Air, come to that? Can they regulate temperature on a hot day? I read that as the brood cells empty, they are back-filled with nectar. Where does that come from? Is the "separation" of the two basically notional? In which case, why does it work?

So many questions: can anyone help?

1st of all there are many variations of the Demaree but I can only speak from experience of the style I use.

The top box has an entrance in the separation board. See my home made version >> http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=10168&d=1399447500

The theory is that the queen and flying bees are in the bottom (new) BB on several if not a full box of drawn BB frames. This gives the queen a whole new box of space to lay in so averting the swarm instinct triggered from lack of space to lay!
If you transfer ONLY the queen and not a frame of brood then it also should give the impression to the queen and flying bees that they have swarmed! (Think of what you have in a swarm)

Meanwhile the top (old) BB contained all the BIAS and house bees which will continue to develop and emerge over the next 3 weeks.
In theory as there becomes less brood in the top BB to look after and in the meantime more brood in the lower BB the house bees should migrate down through the supers to the lower BB to take care of it.

An inspection or two of the top BB to remove any queen cells or use them to make up nucs is required.

After 3 weeks the top BB can be removed and or swapped again with the lower BB if required.

NOTE: If the queen is a prolific layer then this can lead to very big colonies, which is good for gathering honey but can phase some beekeepers!

 

[Nuc]

Hi Yorkshirebees, if you do not leave any brood with the queen, does it not make absconding or swarming more likely or have you not found this to be an issue. Also read how some folk prefer foundation in lower bb where as others say only drawn comb will do. Surely foundation is nearer to what a swarm expects but then you may be performing demaree before queen cells are made to try to relieve bb pressure so bees may not be in full swarm mode in which case drawn may be better. Drawn or foundation? What do you prefer please?
The use of a demaree board(?) also seems optional. Does it give more chance of success? Thanks, Nuc

 

[Finman]

Theory is that laying Queen and brood ARE separated. That Cuts the swarming fever.

Swarming fever is cutted best with foundations.

Brood hive abandon mostly swarming because it becomes so weak. But about 30% OF my hives make after swarm If I do not stop them.

If I put an AS on ready Combs, in many Cases bees continue swarming fever and bild new Queen cell.

If the colony is very vivid TO swarm, it Does w

 

[oliver90owner]

Simple demaree - you separate most of the open brood (at least) from the queen by a couple of shallows or so. Separate is enough, not isolate

Usual practice - leave queenie in the bottom box with a frame of brood and the rest of the box as foundation. That gives the maximum time for the queen to lay without any laying space issues. The top box is often separated by further Q/E. End of story, but the beekeeper will need to remove queen cells, if produced, in the top box to prevent later trouble.

What you do then is up to you. Cull or use any queen cells; exchange the brooded frames from the bottom box after most all of the top box has emerged, giving the queen more foundation or drawn comb (that comb might be discarded if it is old and past its use-by date); isolate the top box and raise a queen from it (obviously a new entrance would be needed for that scenario).

The system is not totally constrained in application and method. You are a beekeeper and should be able to assess yours and the bees' needs.

 

[Nuc]

Thanks Finman and Oliver. Always found you both very helpful. Nuc

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thanks everyone. I think the key is "separate not isolate". Thank you. I might have overdone it a bit but time will tell. And believe me: I have my own "variations". I have supported my own belief you let them tear down their own QCs. So far, touch wood, big colony and no swarm...

 

[Finman]

Thanks everyone. I think the key is "separate not isolate". Thank you. I might have overdone it a bit but time will tell. And believe me: I have my own "variations". I have supported my own belief you let them tear down their own QCs. So far, touch wood, big colony and no swarm...

Separate or isolate but they must be in different hives.

So difficult. Every day.

 

[Finman]

Thanks everyone. I think the key is "separate not isolate". Thank you. I might have overdone it a bit but time will tell. And believe me: I have my own "variations". I have supported my own belief you let them tear down their own QCs. So far, touch wood, big colony and no swarm...

Own variations and the basic is unclear. Amen.
Movement is the Most important, not the goal.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Own variations and the basic is unclear. Amen.
Movement is the Most important, not the goal.

Hahaha To be clear; they were not variations by DESIGN but by accident where I had risked "doing the wrong thing" in order to avoid the disaster outcome of Q and sealed QC in main hive. And the wrong thing whcih I did (basically, having the Q in a split with the QCs) worked out fine so far.

<ADD>My challenge is I struggle to find her; she is unmarked and extremely prolific</ADD>

 

[Finman]

.
Aha.
Like they say "deviation of quality".

 

[davnig]

That's the idea, mine still built swarm cells in the bottom box - little bleeders!

 

[Glenviewbee]

I did my (first ever) Demaree 18 days ago. Removed Q and 1 frame of brood from original hive and placed her in a new BB with all other frames of foundation. Then I had a Queen Excluder, 2 supers of foundation (not had any supers drawn out so far last year or this) then another queen excluder then the original brood box with the remaining frames of BIAS and stores.
1 week later I had a look - bottom BB seemed to be drawing out a bit of comb on 1 of the new foundation frames, there were a couple of queen cups on the original brood frame, there were new eggs and young larvae - no stores.
No drawing out of either super, but lots of new stores in the top brood box. No signs of any QCups in the top box which surprised me.
There were quite a few trapped drones who were grateful for being let out!
The next inspection was 10 days later:
Bottom BB, still evidence queen doing her stuff, no queen cups, still not a lot of comb drawn out but a lot of wax making activity (clumps of bees across the frames) and still no stores in the bottom brood box.
The supers were still not being drawn out, but this time there seemed to be a fair number of bees stuck in the QEx - workers it looked like. Quite a few had their tongues stuck out - a sign of starvation/thirst? LOADS of stores in the top brood box, more empty comb from emerging brood and quite a few dead drones.
This possible evidence of starvation puzzled me and my solution has been to move some stores to the bottom brood box, and also to remove the supers separating the 2 BB - but I have left the QEx in place. I will open up in a couple of days to see what's what.

 

[Cazza]

This is an interesting thread.
Not a great fan of demaree as it isn't always reliable but I have persisted.

I have found that there have been QC's built on the original BIAS frame in the bottom BB. I have wondered whether foundation only in the lower BB might stop this??
What do you all think?
Cazza

 

[Hivemaker.]

What do you all think?

The queen is likely to be trying to get up through the excluder with the rest of the bees and brood while they ignore the box of foundation on the bottom, doing the operation in reverse works very well though, especially if just one empty comb is used.

 

[Cazza]

doing the operation in reverse works very well though, especially if just one empty comb is used.

Sorry Hivemaker, I'm being awfully dim but what do you mean by "doing the operation in reverse?"
Cazza

 

[YorkshireBees]

First of all let me say that I am no expert on Demaree but my method seems to work most of the time!

All of what Finman and Oliver have said makes sense, I just go by my own experiences.

Hi Yorkshirebees, if you do not leave any brood with the queen, does it not make absconding or swarming more likely or have you not found this to be an issue. Also read how some folk prefer foundation in lower bb where as others say only drawn comb will do. Surely foundation is nearer to what a swarm expects but then you may be performing demaree before queen cells are made to try to relieve bb pressure so bees may not be in full swarm mode in which case drawn may be better. Drawn or foundation? What do you prefer please?
The use of a demaree board(?) also seems optional. Does it give more chance of success? Thanks, Nuc

It's all about building the size of the colony without the Queen running out of space to lay and therefore triggering swarming.

I use mostly drawn comb (lucky as I have enough) as I have found the bees can become frustrated on only foundation and bugger off anyway!

I should say that timing is key.
There should be a good flow on (in my case OSR) and the trick is to try and demaree BEFORE they get in swarming mode.

This is an interesting thread.
Not a great fan of demaree as it isn't always reliable but I have persisted.

I have found that there have been QC's built on the original BIAS frame in the bottom BB. I have wondered whether foundation only in the lower BB might stop this??
What do you all think?
Cazza

Again I have been there last year and that's why I transfer just the queen and no brood. To make sure she is looked after I usually shake a couple of frames of bees into the new lower BB.

I did my (first ever) Demaree 18 days ago. Removed Q and 1 frame of brood from original hive and placed her in a new BB with all other frames of foundation. Then I had a Queen Excluder, 2 supers of foundation (not had any supers drawn out so far last year or this) then another queen excluder then the original brood box with the remaining frames of BIAS and stores.
1 week later I had a look - bottom BB seemed to be drawing out a bit of comb on 1 of the new foundation frames, there were a couple of queen cups on the original brood frame, there were new eggs and young larvae - no stores.
No drawing out of either super, but lots of new stores in the top brood box. No signs of any QCups in the top box which surprised me.
There were quite a few trapped drones who were grateful for being let out!
The next inspection was 10 days later:
Bottom BB, still evidence queen doing her stuff, no queen cups, still not a lot of comb drawn out but a lot of wax making activity (clumps of bees across the frames) and still no stores in the bottom brood box.
The supers were still not being drawn out, but this time there seemed to be a fair number of bees stuck in the QEx - workers it looked like. Quite a few had their tongues stuck out - a sign of starvation/thirst? LOADS of stores in the top brood box, more empty comb from emerging brood and quite a few dead drones.
This possible evidence of starvation puzzled me and my solution has been to move some stores to the bottom brood box, and also to remove the supers separating the 2 BB - but I have left the QEx in place. I will open up in a couple of days to see what's what.

I refer to my early statement that I was taught that there has to be a good flow for a demaree.

To stop the top BB just filling up with stores I am this year replacing stores frames or totally emerged brood frames in the top box with foundation. This stops you ending up with a box full of stores (very heavy to lift) and has the added benefit of getting new foundation drawn.
I also usually make sure that I place at least two frames of stores in the new lower BB.

I have just been to remove some top BB's post demaree.
Here's a pic of one hive after I shook out the top BB and 15mins later!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The queen is likely to be trying to get up through the excluder with the rest of the bees and brood while they ignore the box of foundation on the bottom, doing the operation in reverse works very well though, especially if just one empty comb is used.

So not enough "separation" as o90o put it, perhaps? But I'm sorry, HM: you mean something like a Bailey comb change?

<ADD>YorkshireBees: I had taken your point about it being too late to Demaree when they were in swarm mode; thank you. So I initially split, and the (unintentional) Q side tore down the cells while the Q- side built an emergency cell (which I think means I got all the QCs). Then reunited Demareed the next week</ADD>

 

[Hivemaker.]

Sorry Hivemaker, I'm being awfully dim but what do you mean by "doing the operation in reverse?"
Cazza

Leaving the brood at the bottom and moving the queen to a new top brood box with foundation and one empty drawn comb, they love to draw out the foundation in the top box as nectar is brought in... and draw the combs right to the bottom bars, on the second rotation you then have plenty of drawn comb and move the queen back to the bottom box, where most or all of the brood will of emerged...next rotation top box back to bottom with queen and all the brood from bottom back to the top.

 

[enrico]

I am still playing with demaree, second year. Last year I used second QE under top bb. Left it too long and it got filled with honey which was useful for winter feeding. This year I cut a small entrance in a framed QE this allows the drones out but the bees are now almost using it like two hives. I am fourteen days into it and on 21 days will swap the box's. My main problem this year was that I put only three drawn frames in the bottom bb. Those are now full of brood and they haven't drawn out the rest of the foundation yet. I think it will be far easier to use drawn foundation which I will definitely do next time. The main drawback is the height of the hive! I removed queen cells on six days and again on fourteen(today) from top bb didn't expect to get any today but they were there!
I like the method as my main flow is lime and that seems to come into flowers just after swarming fever which means I am usually in the throws of AS and down on numbers. Using demaree last year gave me 70 lbs of lime in that hive.
As usual, horses for courses!
E