We all have one...some time or other...

[RoseCottage]

We have had some lovely weather this weekend - 16-18 degrees around lunch time and cloudless skies without a breeze.

Our 5 colonies of bees have been out busily bringing in pollen of all colours.

Happy Balmy winter days...well almost.


We decided it was an appropriate time for a quick look through the hives to see what we have at this time. We lost one colony two weeks ago so a quick inspection with this weather should be ok and may be advisable.

All colonies showed no varroa drop so we can assume a low varroa population at the moment.

We went through four colonies all with growing brood patches both sides across 3 to 4 frames. larvae in all stages and very calm bees. Plenty of stores and, with the sun and warmth, bees throughout the brood boxes. Stores being accessed in the heat of the day. Overall, reasonably successful bees beginning to build from Winter. Some brood appeared to have already hatched too.

Then the one. You know what I am alluding to...the violent, some may argue malevolent colony.

We lifted the lid to be greeted with a seething colony of bees. In the warmth the hive appeared filled with bees, a great cloud arose from the top of the hive and enveloped both Linn and myself.

I was prepared in full body armour but Linn, a little optimistically, had a slight chink in her armour - only 2 layers of gloves, with a tiny air gap in between on the left glove. Ouch!!! and a rapid retreat. Mind you the bees of this colony were feeling generous and only followed for 30 yards as opposed to the 100 they were doing in October.

So I stood my ground, true Brit that I am, with a very stiff upper lip and a grim determination.

I started through the brood box. Whereas, starting at the back of brood box, the other colonies brood began appearing from just over halfway (frame 6,7,8 - maybe due to the early fall of the sun), with this colony the 2nd frame onwards had a very large patch of brood. Some already hatched.

Not only malevolent but extremely rapid to build up.

After the 3rd frame it was obvious that there was little point in continuing. I was having difficulty seeing as my veil was covered in angry bees and I was being pinged on my head a lot. I smoked myself heavily and walked away. A couple of minutes later I went back in to close them up.

Obviously they need dealing with. I see a number of options:

1. Re-queen
2. Kill
3. Split down into smaller colonies and requeen these
4. Close them up and move them down the field and leave well alone, hoping they requeen naturally

Not all of these options are real - some of them just make me smile and feel a little better. I know that I will have to suit up again and take a few hits before I sort them out. I am ready for it but the time is not right. It's a little early in the season to be taking brood.

My best colony has provided queens that have proven to be calm and gentle. 4 of them and they provided the genetic material necessary to overcome a similar issue last year with Mad Mary's colony (although this had an equally poor attitude it was on a much smaller scale). The best colony only has 3 frames of brood at the moment.

So how best to requeen them. I was thinking of the following maybe...

When I feel I can take a frame from my favourite colony:

1. Close them in and move them 30 feet away from their existing location
2. Place a new hive with 5 undrawn frames in a brood box on the original location
3. Open the ugly hive and walk away with a frame to 20 feet in-front of the new hive
4. Look for the queen and if found kill her otherwise shake the bees off the frame and then place the frame in the new brood box
5. Repeat this for 3 more frames of brood
6. Fetch the selected brood frame from the calm colony and place it in the centre and mark it with a drawing pin
7. Put a 1:1 feed on the new hive to help draw the frames out
8. Close up all hives
9. Monitor the new hive ensuring only a queencell on my good frame goes forward to hatch

My thoughts are divide and conquer and try to reduce the threat. I know it seems laborious but if I reduce the numbers perhaps I will win more easily.

Shake the bees off the frames 20 feet in-front of the new colony to have less aggressive bees in my face whilst I work. They should fly back to the original location and start to assist with the brood.

The new colony will remain turbulent in the short term but will I have less bees to deal with. When the queen hatches she can take control of a smaller colony and can get them calm.

If I cannot find and kill the queen in the ugly hive then in a couple of days I can perhaps go in again and work a much smaller colony of bees to find her.
If I can kill her and keep removing any queen cells I can unite the bees with the new calmer colony in a few weeks.

All thoughts are welcome and any simpler effective ideas...

All the best,
Sam

 

[countryman]

if there carnolian it might be a third generation queen causing the feistyness in which case requeen

 

[Into the lions den]

This early in the year a subtle change in the weather could have caused this, or, not knowing your apiary layout, as it was the last colony worked, it might have sensed all the goings on, and been 'ready' for you.

Do not sign its death warrant on the basis of a single check in March, almost a month before we will be doing any serious breaking of comb. (At least a fortnight before in the case of the southern unit.)

As regards the suggestion about carni crosses, well as you are in Andover, Kent, carni or otherwise, you are not all that likely to be meeting a mating with a dominance of A.m.m. drones, so, if it is like that all the time you may have one of those random bad combinations that appear out of leftfield in the genetic lottery. It crops up sporadically in all bee types I ever met. A physical description of the bees themselves could help (not necessarily).

 

[REDWOOD]

To re-queen would be your best option, if you cant find the queen shake your bees onto a queen excluder

 

[gavin]

Given that the colony was giving you grief in October, I'd assume that the queen needs changed.

Chop drone brood out from this colony when it makes some otherwise the genetics may be propagated. If you can't easily manipulate the colony shift the box a few metres an hour before you open and leave an empty on the site. The fliers will be gone and you will have less grief. Put it back after you are finished as the fliers can't make a colony. Wait until your other colonies have hatching drones, then de-queen your nasty one, slip in a frame of eggs from a better colony and keep queen cell(s) only from your introduced frame.

Or requeen with a mated queen of a type compatible with your other bees, if you can get one.

 

[BKF Admin]

As regards the suggestion about carni crosses, well as you are in Andover, .

I am not to far from this member and have over the years often had to deal with the same problem.

I was lucky enough to spend the first two years beekeeping looking after an apiary full of the little demon's so when I got my first bee's I was amazed to find that actualy bees could be calm.

I had Carni x bees follow me 200 yards and attempt to sting,I used to end up having a very long walk back to were I used to park the car and am amazed I never gave up in those first two years before getting my first colony.

 

[enrico]

Am I missing something? I have a similar situation although my 'bad' hive isn't quite that horrendous. I was going to find the stroppy queen and remove her and then combine a smaller quiet hive with the stroppy larger hive using newspaper. Would that work or would they just kill the quiet queen? (this presumes I can find the bad queen of course)
E

 

[Arfermo]

Am I missing something? I have a similar situation although my 'bad' hive isn't quite that horrendous. I was going to find the stroppy queen and remove her and then combine a smaller quiet hive with the stroppy larger hive using newspaper. Would that work or would they just kill the quiet queen? (this presumes I can find the bad queen of course)
E

Redwood has the best answer for finding an elusive queen. Shake all the bees onto a QE on top of a nearly empty spare BB (2 to 3 frames is enough) and the only ones left behind will almost certainly bee the Q and any drones. The rest is simples - your choice!!!. Just need a warmish spell. It's a bit early to find new ready mated Q's just yet.

 

[Winker]

.



So how best to requeen them. I was thinking of the following maybe...

When I feel I can take a frame from my favourite colony:

1. Close them in and move them 30 feet away from their existing location
2. Place a new hive with 5 undrawn frames in a brood box on the original location
3. Open the ugly hive and walk away with a frame to 20 feet in-front of the new hive
4. Look for the queen and if found kill her otherwise shake the bees off the frame and then place the frame in the new brood box
5. Repeat this for 3 more frames of brood
6. Fetch the selected brood frame from the calm colony and place it in the centre and mark it with a drawing pin
7. Put a 1:1 feed on the new hive to help draw the frames out
8. Close up all hives
9. Monitor the new hive ensuring only a queencell on my good frame goes forward to hatch

My thoughts are divide and conquer and try to reduce the threat. I know it seems laborious but if I reduce the numbers perhaps I will win more easily.

Shake the bees off the frames 20 feet in-front of the new colony to have less aggressive bees in my face whilst I work. They should fly back to the original location and start to assist with the brood.

The new colony will remain turbulent in the short term but will I have less bees to deal with. When the queen hatches she can take control of a smaller colony and can get them calm.

If I cannot find and kill the queen in the ugly hive then in a couple of days I can perhaps go in again and work a much smaller colony of bees to find her.
If I can kill her and keep removing any queen cells I can unite the bees with the new calmer colony in a few weeks.

All thoughts are welcome and any simpler effective ideas...

All the best,
Sam

I have the same problem, and im going with almost the same plan as above. I will let her build the bees up for the OSR crop and then deal with them after that. I may split mine into 2-3 nucs for re-queening

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

An alternative, suggested last year by RAB I think was to

a) Move old BB away and replace with box to hold returning flyers
b) Shake bees from old BB into a spare BB, pop a QE on top and the old BB with brood frames on top of that
c) Nurse bees should move up, flyers should return to old home, leaving not a lot in the bottom box

Mind you with a frisky colony that could be exciting at the shaking stage!

 

[Poly Hive]

Oddly when shaking a nasty colony they seem to lose heart. If you can stand your ground initially it pays to persevere but.......

DO dress for it, and make absolutely sure you are the only one to take the hit... as in for goodness sake do not try it in your suburban garden.... with the neighbours peering over the fence...


PH

 

[Rosti]

Sam, I am not into Q rearing, grafting and the like. Your approach feels like a decent blend of pragmatic and deliverable. R

 

[beesbepleased]

Similar experience - all my colonies were very quiet and well behaved, until the last one. It was a little smaller than the rest going into winter and a little lighter on stores than I would have liked, but all OK in Jan when OA'd. Yesterday, though, quite a bit more agitated than others - nothing like the demones mentioned though, but they were very low on stores. My guess is they were protecting what little they had left. An emergency feed yesterday and another inspection when nice and warm again to confirm that it was a lack of stores. 2 Frames of Brood seen but no eggs - wonder if Q has stopped because of lack of food. We'll see....

 

[drstitson]

just moving the box pre inspection worked wonders for one of my iffy ones.

i'd also recommend working with cover cloth(s) - that way you just get one or two frames worth of bees pouring up at you at once!

 

[itma]

If they were horrors last year, and again now, HMQ deserves no more 'benefit of the doubt'.

Its just how and when.

But until the day comes, (if its still too early for major upheavals), wouldn't it be a good idea to do some drone culling in that colony, to minimise any further chance of those genes spreading? Wouldn't do any harm to their varroa count either.
Would a drawn shallow frame in the BB (so that they can build easily-removed drone-comb below), be the easiest way? (Absent any drone foundation...)

 

[justme]

This may well be a complete waste of time (but not much - time that is), it was suggested to me that turning a hive 90 degrees may have a positive effect. This was suggested by a very long standing very experienced beekeeper when I mentioned that a hive of mine had turned evil (carni's), these were queenless at the time and were ok before that. !BTW, turning did work, much to my astonishment!