Strange goings on

[JustAddBees]

Hi All,

Viewed my hive yesterday morning before work and all was fine. Got home late and noticed a cluster under the hive in the dark. Also, there was quite a volume of dead bees on the ground under the entrance.

This morning, bees flying as normal but cluster still present under hive. Can clearly see pupae amongst the dead bees, some still crawling, wax cappings, and the odd varoa mite. Also the biggest bumble I have ever seen!

For background, this is my first colony, a mid-late season swarm. They are in a top bar hive. No OMF. No honey harvest. I've been feeding syrup through autumn and provided fondant 2-3 weeks ago as temperatures dropped due to stores looking low, all this despite strong foraging activity until recent change in weather.

I'll be checking hive later this morning, but thoughts in advance would be appreciated. Hoping this is just a clear out after cold snap, but the cluster under the hive confuses issue.

Thanks for any thoughts, Sam

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[alldigging]

Is the entrance clear?

 

[JustAddBees]

Yes entrance is clear. Double checked that last night and again early this morning.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[enrico]

A couple of options, unlikely that the queen got under there is number one
The main reason is likely to be that some bees have been flying during the day, on coming in to the hive they have flown under the entrance. They think they are in the hive because they can see their mates through the OMF but they can't get through it. As the cluster gets bigger more returning bees join them. In the cold weather they will die. You can lose a whole hive like this. The simple answer is to block the gap between the landing board and the ground so that they can't underlying the entrance.
E

 

[Hivemaker.]

They think they are in the hive because they can see their mates through the OMF but they can't get through it.

There is no open mesh floor.

 

[Arfermo]

Enrico - Read the original post - there is no OMF!!!! So try again?

 

[JustAddBees]

Well, my first observation is that the colony is far stronger than when I inspected in October. I hadn't expected such a population explosion and I think this accounts for the cluster under the hive. I even found queen cells but all were aborted and most had been torn down. I've added 2no. bars and shaken the cluster into the hive with a white sheet on the ground for any stragglers to climb up (there was no queen amongst them and they were understandably docile). The bars are blanks unfortunately but it's all I have. There is a good pattern of capped brood, and plenty of stores. Perhaps 2% of bees have very torn wings but all others appear healthy. Many bees busy cleaning floor of hive so I think this explains the rubbish out front. Oh, and they're making good progress with the fondant. And finally, they had been tearing down the first comb nearest the entrance, which is a bit of a puzzle.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Hivemaker.]

Perhaps 2% of bees have very torn wings but all others appear healthy.

Torn or deformed?

 

[JustAddBees]

Torn. I made sure to look closely when I noticed them

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[JustAddBees]

Although, I've just compared to photos of DWV and I fear I may be mistaken

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Hivemaker.]

Although, I've just compared to photos of DWV and I fear I may be mistaken

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Have you noticed any robbing going on?

Looking at one of your pictures there are also some immature bees and pupae that have been thrown out, and a bumble bee among them.

If those bees you have seen do have DWV i would advise you to treat the colony for mites.

 

[pargyle]

I don't have all the answers but there are a couple of additional possibilities:

1. It may be that they got caught out in a shower of rain and there was not enough room for them to all get in to the entrance when they returned so they went underneath .. I've seen mine returning when the rain is imminent and it's like clapham junction at rush hour - you (quite rightly) have a reduced entrance but if a lot were flying and returned all at once - they are not completely stupid - they will get out of the rain.

2. You have been feeding them a lot ..is your feeder leaking ? If so then syrup could have leaked through the floor of the hive and the bees found it ?

3. That's a queen bumble by the look of it .. if she was trying to find a place to overwinter and decided your hive was likely then your bees could have taken exception to this and what you are seeing is mass 'balling' .. where they will try to kill the intruder by basically overheating it inside a tight cluster.

4.You say they have been tearing down comb at the front of the hive .. are you sure that it's the bees .. that sounds more like mouse damage to me .. in which case the bees under the hive may have been chasing off the intruder and got a bit confused about where they should return to ..

It may be one of those beekeeping enigmas that you never really get to the bottom of .. goodness knows we've had a few on here over the years - bees will inevitably do something that you don't understand and some time or other - but they know what they are doing usually !

A couple of comments about your hive though:

I don't think I would be adding new top bars at this time of the year .. all you are doing is creating more space for them to have to heat. I would be more inclined to reduce the hive down to the size of the bars they have drawn and - pull them towards the entrance end of the hive and fill the empty space at the back with some insulation.

Do you have insulation on the top of of your top bars and under the roof. Single wall plywood TBH's can be pretty cold places for bees and I would be adding some Kingspan/Celotex insulation on the top and also strapping some to the sides of the hive. Madasafish is our resident expert on TBH insulation - he may be along shortly with some photos of his TBH with insulation on them ?

The hive looks pretty close to the ground .. I prefer my hives on stands about 18" - 24" off the ground as it takes them out of the ground frost zone .. I'd be inclined to add a few more blocks to the pile or build a stand for it.

You should also, perhaps, be reducing the entrance even further as a mouse can easily get into a 1" hole ... cut a piece of dowel the size of the hole and reduce the entrance hole down to one bee space for the winter .. getting the hive up higher may also help discourage the little beggars - although they are incredible climbers and can hang on to surfaces that you would never think possible.

 

[JustAddBees]

Thanks Pargyle, very friendly advise as usual. No leaks from the feeder and have taken syrup off now anyway. The voids and roof are all insulated. I have recently been raising the hive one brick at a time, and will likely look to fabricate a stand to get it higher. And yes, will also reduce entrance or fit excluder of some sort.

Will be reading up today on best method of varoa treatment for this time of year.

Thanks again for all your help and thoughts.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[pargyle]

Will be reading up today on best method of varoa treatment for this time of year.


Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

The best varroa treatment now is going to be OA .. ideally sublimated but you will have to conjour up some sort of pipe arrangement to go in through one of your entrance holes ... whilst sealing the others up. Again, if there's brood in there then you will need to do it three times at 5 day intervals.

The alternative is to trickle OA but it's not that easy to do when you have top bars as you will need to move them along to create a gap between the bars and that really is not going to sit well with your bees at this time of the year. I'm not going to comment on OA trickling much .. it's not a treatment that I think is particularly kind to the bees although I know that it is fairly effective.

None of the aromatic/thymol treatments are going to work with the temperatures you have at present so your options are fairly limited.

The other option is to leave them alone ... tin hat on ... there's a risk but bees do survive without treatment.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The best varroa treatment now is going to be OA .. ideally sublimated but you will have to conjour up some sort of pipe arrangement to go in through one of your entrance holes ... whilst sealing the others up.

And if it is a battery operated thing like a varrox, then just take the lid off, slide the evaporator in under the cluster, put the lid back on and connect the wires, remove an hour or so later.

 

[Millet]

And if it is a battery operated thing like a varrox, then just take the lid off, slide the evaporator in under the cluster, put the lid back on and connect the wires, remove an hour or so later.

It must be a good battery if you leave them on for a hour..

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And if it is a battery operated thing like a varrox, then just take the lid off, slide the evaporator in under the cluster, put the lid back on and connect the wires, remove an hour or so later.

good thinking HM! should be plenty of room in there to get the varrox under without disturbing the cluster. I'd mabe go as far as to say, put the thing in place, close up and leave for a while for the bees to settle down again, close the entrance and then switch the varrox on

 

[pargyle]

good thinking HM! should be plenty of room in there to get the varrox under without disturbing the cluster. I'd mabe go as far as to say, put the thing in place, close up and leave for a while for the bees to settle down again, close the entrance and then switch the varrox on

Good bit of lateral thinking HM & JBM ... should be an easy job if there is space at the end of the hive just filled with insulation ... hardly have to have the roof up at all ... only interesting bit might be how to seal the top of the hive with a couple of wires coming out to the battery ? They are not very thick on the Varrox I've used but it might be easier to dispense with the roof and just slap a sheet of plywood or chipboard on top of the top bars for the duration of the treatment - cut a notch at the far end to thread the wires through ? Possibly easier than trying to get the wires out with the standard roof on.

I'll wait to see the photos if it happens ...

 

[BeeJayBee]

Just a quick question - are all the dead bees workers, or are they drones? I can't really tell on my screen, and can't enlarge your picture.

 

[enrico]

Sorry folks. Really must concentrate, no OMF!
Whoops
E