re-introducing a brood frame

[patl]

Hi,

Hopefully my bought-in queen is currently settling herself in the nuc she's been introduced to and in a couple of weeks time I'll re-combine the nuc with the original parent hive.
When I do the recombine, I'm currently planning on moving the old queen out on her current brood frame into another nuc until I'm sure the combination was successful, at which point I'll dispatch her.
What's the best way of getting that brood frame & house bees back into the hive. I assume since it will still smell of the old queen I can't just drop it back into the hive? But a newspaper combine of one frame and a few house bees seems a bit over the top. Suggestions please.

Thanks,
Pat.

 

[Bosleeu]

Just to clarify, the new queen is in a Nuc, but on only one frame with bees?

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[patl]

Sorry, no, the new queen is in a made up 4 frame nuc at present. I'm just planning ahead on how to do the recombination of this nuc with the current q+ hive. I want to save the old queen while I combine the nuc with the hive just in case I get problems - I'd rather have the old queen than no queen. But the question is how to reintroduce the frame that had the saved old queen on once I dispatch her.

 

[Finman]

.
Why you take risk with joining nuc and splitting a new nuc? It is always a risk to experienced beekeeper too. Big hive may get swarming impulse if you make it bigger.

Take from bigger hive a frame of emerging brood. Shake bees off from frame and put into the nuc.

4 frame nuc is very good start of hive. Help it to expand No need to join it. Close mesh floor in the nuc, if it has such.

.

 

[tudorcd]

Just shake bees out in front of hive, they will gain entry with a bribe, and reinsert the beeless frame straight away, nurse bees will care for the brood.

 

[Bosleeu]

Sorry, no, the new queen is in a made up 4 frame nuc at present. I'm just planning ahead on how to do the recombination of this nuc with the current q+ hive. I want to save the old queen while I combine the nuc with the hive just in case I get problems - I'd rather have the old queen than no queen. But the question is how to reintroduce the frame that had the saved old queen on once I dispatch her.

Yeah that makes sense, sorry I misunderstood.

Yes, shake them out they should be accepted. Then simply insert the frame, as suggested.

You could also leave them for about 15 minutes, spray the frame with a bit of syrup then simply pop it into the hive bees and all. . Shouldn't result in fighting.

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[patl]

Just shake bees out in front of hive, they will gain entry with a bribe, and reinsert the beeless frame straight away, nurse bees will care for the brood.

Good point, I knew there was an option right in front of me that I was missing
However, Its just occurred to me that I don't know what nurse bees are capable of. Are they actually able to fly and follow the general concensus? do they just climb in to the nearest available hive? As they haven't done an orientation flight yet, they obviously individually know nothing about 'home' from the outside so what do they do?

 

[patl]

.
Why you take risk with joining nuc and splitting a new nuc? It is always a risk to experienced beekeeper too. Big hive may get swarming impulse if you make it bigger.

Take from bigger hive a frame of emerging brood. Shake bees off from frame and put into the nuc.

4 frame nuc is very good start of hive. Help it to expand No need to join it. Close mesh floor in the nuc, if it has such.

.

Well the need for this move was because I need to requeen this hive, the queen while prolific is very swarmy and a follower so I need to nip out her genes asap. As I built the nuc from this hive there shouldn't be too much of an increase in brood size anyway. If I leave the current queen in place, there's a very good chance they'll want to swarm before long anyway (even though this hive is a prime swarm that issued from my other hive a few weeks ago, it was already 6 brood frames before I constructed the nuc) so I'm hoping that the new queen will knock that back and if not then I'll a/s into a nuc and requeen that once the new queen produces a spare frame of brood I can move to the nuc. Or is there a better plan?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

However, Its just occurred to me that I don't know what nurse bees are capable of. Are they actually able to fly and follow the general concensus? do they just climb in to the nearest available hive? As they haven't done an orientation flight yet, they obviously individually know nothing about 'home' from the outside so what do they do?

Bees are able to fly a few days after emerging - nurse bees are always welcome in a hive if they come begging, so they will find a new home in whatever hive they get to.
As an aside, this whole reintroduction seems to have been a terrible lot of faff over a simple manoevre. Too much of this nonsense of making up a nuc with the new queen before uniting back to the recipient hive. You're risking rejection of the new queen twice in a row (doesn't matter whether it's a nuc or a full hive, same level of risk in introducing a new queen) If you are so concerned on keeping the old queen as a spare, you should have initially taken her out and made a nuc up, introduced the new queen into the main colony thus having the old queen as a reserve if something bad happened.

 

[Bosleeu]

Bees are able to fly a few days after emerging - nurse bees are always welcome in a hive if they come begging, so they will find a new home in whatever hive they get to.
As an aside, this whole reintroduction seems to have been a terrible lot of faff over a simple manoevre. Too much of this nonsense of making up a nuc with the new queen before uniting back to the recipient hive. You're risking rejection of the new queen twice in a row (doesn't matter whether it's a nuc or a full hive, same level of risk in introducing a new queen) If you are so concerned on keeping the old queen as a spare, you should have initially taken her out and made a nuc up, introduced the new queen into the main colony thus having the old queen as a reserve if something bad happened.

I thought the general idea was that nucs will normally accept introduced queens more readily than full or especially very large colonies. Introduce to a Nuc, then unite, seems to be the general advice, if you buy a queen it will often come with a leaflet that tells you just that.

Not saying you are wrong, that is just what I have read and heard. I have just believed it and always done it like that. It is a faff you are right, would be much easier to just do it in one step.

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've always introduced queens direct into a hive when needed, you just take your time (but at the same time, don't leave them q- for more than a couple of hours) and leave plenty of time before allowing the bees at the candy, and there doesn't seem to be an issue. Beekeeping is a pretty straightforward and simple craft - just some people seem to take great joy in making it more complicated.

 

[patl]

That's what I did last time I introduced a queen, but it was to a weaker colony and later in the season. I figured this time I'd take the supposedly safer approach. Still, as long as it's successful, I won't complain.

 

[Madge]

... (but at the same time, don't leave them q- for more than a couple of hours) ...

What would be the danger if you leave them queenless for a bit longer - say, half a day, or a bit longer?
Kitta

 

[Bosleeu]

I've always introduced queens direct into a hive when needed, you just take your time (but at the same time, don't leave them q- for more than a couple of hours) and leave plenty of time before allowing the bees at the candy, and there doesn't seem to be an issue. Beekeeping is a pretty straightforward and simple craft - just some people seem to take great joy in making it more complicated.

Thanks.
Do you check for queencells before letting them at the candy? I have had a few where they started drawing them whilst she was in the cage if they have young enough larvae. I presume this is because her pheromones are not distributed in the hive.



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[Bosleeu]

What would be the danger if you leave them queenless for a bit longer - say, half a day, or a bit longer?
Kitta

I would imagine they will start thinking about starting queencells.

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[Madge]

I would imagine they will start thinking about starting queencells.

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So soon, Bosleeu - so as to be a problem? I lost a queen last year and I thought it was because I hadn't left the nucleus queenless for long enough!

 

[Erichalfbee]

According to a paper I have just recently read curtesy of somebody else on the forum queen intro goes best if colony is queen-less a few hours or a week or so......ie hopelessly.

 

[Bosleeu]

So soon, Bosleeu - so as to be a problem? I lost a queen last year and I thought it was because I hadn't left the nucleus queenless for long enough!

I have seen them starting queencells overnight - from me killing a nasty queen late afternoon to introducing another the next morning. Don't know for sure about a couple of hours but from their behaviour they seem to realise pretty quickly (about half an hour I would say, sometimes quicker) that they are queenless.

According to a paper I have just recently read curtesy of somebody else on the forum queen intro goes best if colony is queen-less a few hours or a week or so......ie hopelessly.

Yes I suppose that's either before they make queencells (ie soon) or if not then wait till they have nothing left to make a queencell with.

Mostly I just leave the queen in the cage until no more queencells are being made and the bees are showing no signs of aggression towards the queen in the cage before I expose the candy. I know it's a faff but it seems to work. In time I may do it quicker most of my bees are not at home any more so can't really see them on a daily basis any more.

I know some people literally just take one queen out, smoke heavily and walk another one in. Not that brave yet

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[Madge]

...

Yes I suppose that's either before they make queencells (ie soon) or if not then wait till they have nothing left to make a queencell with.
...

I'll bear that in mind next time.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What would be the danger if you leave them queenless for a bit longer - say, half a day, or a bit longer?
Kitta

I think it's just that they are beginning to feel the loss of the queen, then a new one pops up before they make plans to try and make their own. Redwood and I requeened a hive today that had only been Q- since Friday afternoon (crossed wires, we intended to do it Friday but postponed because of the weather, but unbeknownst to us the association secretary let the SBI inspect the apiary later that day and didn't think we were available at short notice) we took down over a dozen well progressed QC's.
I just think the quicker you swap the queens the better - one old hand who learn his beekeeping with deBruyn believed in the simple theory that if you allwed them to build QC's then they would expect to see a virgin in the hive thus would be reluctant to accept a mated queen.
I read up quite a bit on the subject, especially snelgrove and the feeling I got in general was that the quicker the new queen got in there the better (an hour or two seemed to be the favourite) I usually stop them getting at the candy plug for a day or two as an added precaution.
Saying that, last year I introduced a queen into a hive thirty seconds or so after removing her predecessor, less than two days (I think) later I went in to remove the tape (I'd forgotten to tke my usual plastic caps with me) and the bees had chewed through the tape, released the queen and she was happily pottering around the frame!