Quick combining question

[Levitt53]

I have a large colony with 3 supers which I think is queenless. They were trying to supersede but I think it's failed - I have a test frame in at the moment. I also have a split which I looked at the first time today and it has quite a few frames of BIAS. If I discover that the large colony is actually queenless, how can I go about combining them? Could I put the queen right copy on top and combine by newspaper? Although I think it would then be a bit difficult to find the queen to put her in the right place. I also have a snelgrove board if I could use that.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Clear the supers into one empty one. Put the split in a full size hive and combine by putting the queenless colony on top. You can rejig the brood boxes in two days and put the supers back

 

[Levitt53]

Clear the supers into one empty one. Put the split in a full size hive and combine by putting the queenless colony on top. You can rejig the brood boxes in two days and put the supers back

Thanks. Ok so QRight, paper, QLess then super? Do you put them into one super to just concentrate the bees near to the paper? Also what happens to the bees that are out at the time of the split anyway? As it happens these colonies are next to each other so hopefully they will find their way in.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks. Ok so QRight, paper, QLess then super? Do you put them into one super to just concentrate the bees near to the paper? Also what happens to the bees that are out at the time of the split anyway? As it happens these colonies are next to each other so hopefully they will find their way in.

You clear the three supers into an empty one so that it’s easier to lift. No other reason.
In the afternoon put newspaper on the queenright box
Loosen the other hive from its floor
In the evening when all the bees have stopped flying put the queenless box on top of the newspaper. You might lose a few bees on the floor but they will find the hive in the morning
You won’t lose any flyers if they are all at home

 

[Levitt53]

Ok that sounds like a plan. Thank you.

 

[eltalia]

Ok that sounds like a plan. Thank you.

And as bootstrap safety..?... fit a QR to the entrance, example attached.

Bill

 

[citrus]

I think I have the same situation .. but my big queenless(?) colony is in double brood formation ...

so should I stack the two double brood queenless on top .. so it is triple brood for a bit ?

Also my split that would be the q+ is about 30m away (nuc's away from the main apiary with 3 hives) ... so should I unite at that site where the q- is or the q+ ?

 

[eltalia]

@citrus
Make up a single (brood) box from your two brood and proceed as per.
It matters n0t which yard as the bees combined to stay insitu.

Bill

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think I have the same situation .. but my big queenless(?) colony is in double brood formation ...

so should I stack the two double brood queenless on top .. so it is triple brood for a bit ?

Also my split that would be the q+ is about 30m away (nuc's away from the main apiary with 3 hives) ... so should I unite at that site where the q- is or the q+ ?

Reduce your two broods into one
If they are queenless you are not going to have two boxes of brood
Shake the frames from one box into the other and take away
The process of chewing through the newspaper disorientated the bees any way
The reason you have the queen on the bottom is that you know where she is

 

[citrus]

Reduce your two broods into one
If they are queenless you are not going to have two boxes of brood
Shake the frames from one box into the other and take away
The process of chewing through the newspaper disorientated the bees any way
The reason you have the queen on the bottom is that you know where she is

Cheers Eric.

One last question .. I tried a test frame last week in this "double brood" .. checked last night and they havent tried to raise any qc's on the eggs .. but seemed to have covered them up so there is one frame of brood.

trying to work out if that means there is a queen in there ..but just not laying at all (all the frames are pollen and nectar) ..

(this is a continuation of this thread -> https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44898)

 

[Erichalfbee]

Cheers Eric.

One last question .. I tried a test frame last week in this "double brood" .. checked last night and they havent tried to raise any qc's on the eggs .. but seemed to have covered them up so there is one frame of brood.

trying to work out if that means there is a queen in there ..but just not laying at all (all the frames are pollen and nectar) ..

(this is a continuation of this thread -> https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44898)

When would your queen have emerged?
I give my queens six weeks before I consider any drastic action
A few words about test frames. If you are planning on making a new queen this way you have to inspect 5 or so days later to remove the capped cells made on older larvae and choose an open one where you can see the grub

 

[citrus]

When would your queen have emerged?
I give my queens six weeks before I consider any drastic action
A few words about test frames. If you are planning on making a new queen this way you have to inspect 5 or so days later to remove the capped cells made on older larvae and choose an open one where you can see the grub

So that test frame I put in on 3rd July was perfect as it was half capped brood and at least 20 grubs

when I checked last night I didnt see any grubs and just all capped brood .. that is what has me stumped as I was expecting to see some emergency qc's

you think I should just leave them to it for a bit longer ?

(the original qc from the demarree I left them was on 12th June) .so potentially I need to leave it a couple more weeks on your maths then

 

[Erichalfbee]

When did your queen emerge?

 

[eltalia]

@citrus
"so that test frame I put in on 3rd July was perfect
as it was half capped brood and at least 20 grubs"

For all intents and purpose the "give a frame of brood" bandied about here
_must_ include at least eggs less than 10-14hours old, and preferably
at the extents of the broodcomb, like n0t around the centre patch.
This arrangement of supply gives the best chance of results.

"Grubs" should be no more than on the fourth day of growth, post that
period bees may shun them in simply building to normal worker brood.

All that said I am not reading anything from yourself yet which indicates
"Queenless" actually exists.
Patience...more of it, less speculation.

Bill

 

[Erichalfbee]

@citrus
"so that test frame I put in on 3rd July was perfect
as it was half capped brood and at least 20 grubs"

For all intents and purpose the "give a frame of brood" bandied about here
_must_ include at least eggs less than 10-14hours old, and preferably
at the extents of the broodcomb, like n0t around the centre patch.
This arrangement of supply gives the best chance of results.

"Grubs" should be no more than on the fourth day of growth, post that

All that said I am not reading anything from yourself yet which indicates
"Queenless" actually exists.
Patience...more of it, less speculation.

Bill

In his other thread he said eggs/bias
I agree with your last two sentences though

 

[thedozzer]

So that test frame I put in on 3rd July was perfect as it was half capped brood and at least 20 grubs

when I checked last night I didnt see any grubs and just all capped brood .. that is what has me stumped as I was expecting to see some emergency qc's

you think I should just leave them to it for a bit longer ?

(the original qc from the demarree I left them was on 12th June) .so potentially I need to leave it a couple more weeks on your maths then

We had a new queen playing silly buggers earlier in the year, as Erica points out, it can take up to 6 weeks for a queen to get her egg + sperm release synchronised, ours took nearly 5 weeks with quite a lot of drone being laid beforehand, then she then started laying like a train.
We didnt know the colonies status as we couldn't find the queen as there had been a lot of piping, so we started putting a test frame in each week, and only on the third week did they start to produce any QC as it can take quite a few frames for them to want to try.
We are only in our first full year, but have realised that with bees, patience is a very hand tool as the bees don't have a calender

 

[citrus]

"when did the queen emerge" ....

tbh I dont know ... it was a capped qc on 12th june so shortly after that (he said vaguely) ... basically i thought i was best leaving them to it and only checked after a few weeks to see if the new queen was at work and so far no evidence.

appreciate I should be more patient ... especially with Bill

 

[Poly Hive]

Attn "the dozzer"

From what you are saying about three weeks of test frames says that there was very likely a virgin in there which got lost on a mating flight hence the delay.

I have tested a suspect colony with a graft, that is one larva in a cup, and they were busy drawing it out into a queen cell the next day.

It's not a matter of down the line they respond to a test frame (which by the very nature of the beast has at the very least young larvae and or eggs for the bees to use as queens) as if they are queenless they will pounce on the chance to raise a queen.

PH

 

[beeno]

"when did the queen emerge" ....

tbh I dont know ... it was a capped qc on 12th june so shortly after that (he said vaguely) ... basically i thought i was best leaving them to it and only checked after a few weeks to see if the new queen was at work and so far no evidence.

appreciate I should be more patient ... especially with Bill

Thats why you should mark the frame the QC is on to check that she has emerged - not a full inspection just that!

 

[Hachi]

"when did the queen emerge" ....

tbh I dont know ... it was a capped qc on 12th june so shortly after that (he said vaguely) ... basically i thought i was best leaving them to it and only checked after a few weeks to see if the new queen was at work and so far no evidence.

appreciate I should be more patient ... especially with Bill

Best try and learn this:

https://www.richmondbeekeepers.co.uk/tools-links/Bee-LifeCycle-Chart.pdf