"Queen unseen" artificial swarm

[scuttlefish]

Someone asked what "queen unseen" artificial swarm method I used, so here goes - suggestions for improvement gratefully received. I've tried this once (properly) and it worked. I'll remind you in advance that I've only been keeping bees for around three years, and until this year only had one full hive.

Doing an artificial swarm if you can't find the queen

Start your a/s as normal, i.e. move the hive to one side and put a new brood box (BB) & base in its place with full set of frames (comb or foundation). At this point in an A/S you find the queen and swap her + the frame she's on from the old hive into the new BB for one of the new frames, then pick a good queen cell on one of the remaining frames in the old BB, mark that and tear the others down.

But if you can't find the queen - if all of the bees are in one box, then (assuming she hasn't swarmed yet) the queen must be in there. So pick a good frame of brood (with no QCs) out of the old BB and swap it for a new frame from the new BB. Select the frame with the QC you want to keep from the old BB and brush (don't shake the frame with the QC) all the bees off into the new BB, then replace the frame in the old BB. Then go through the rest of the frames in the old BB, shaking & brushing all the bees off into the new BB and breaking down QCs as you go. When you are finished you should have:
1) a new BB on the old site, with one frame of brood + rest drawn comb or foundation, no QC, all of the bees and (theoretically) the old queen;
2) the old BB to one side with all except one of the old frames, one frame foundation, one QC and no bees.

Put the hive back together on the old site with 1) on the bottom, then a queen excluder, then the supers, then the old BB on top (then the crown board and roof, obviously).

Now, young bees are attracted to brood, so leave the hive overnight and the nurse bees will move up to cover the brood and keep it warm. The next day you can move the old BB off the top (don't even open the roof, just lift the whole lot off) and put it on a new base on a new site. Put a new crown board and roof on the new hive on the old site.

You now have:
1) a new BB on the old site, with one frame of brood + rest drawn comb or foundation, no QC, the older bees and (theoretically) the old queen;
2) the old BB on a new site with all except one of the old frames, one frame foundation, one QC and the younger bees.

Carry on from that point as for a normal artificial swarm.

Now, easier said than done to get all the bees out of the old BB, and when I'm doing it again I'll probably use a third box (frames out of the old, bees brushed into the new, and frames back into the third - third then goes on top as 2) and the old BB goes for cleaning).

This method was given out at our local assoc. in a session on swarm control, as one of our better beeks said it's "deceptively simple" and having done it I'd still recommend the conventional find-the-queen method because I've spent the last two weeks wondering whether I'd killed her in all the activity, somehow left her behind in the old box (so no.2 would have a QC, brood, young bees and an older queen who may swarm when those younger bees grow up a bit) or even if she'd already left.

Also, when picking which QC to keep, break down any sealed ones and leave a good unsealed one - pick which one you want to keep before you break the rest down. Watch for eggs in apparently-empty queen cups as well.

Now over to those better qualified to poke holes in the above...!

 

[Salamagundy]

Now over to those better qualified to poke holes in the above...!

I'm certainly not better qualified, Scuttlefish. This is my second season and I've found it challenging so far.... And I certainly don't want to poke holes! I wish I'd read your post before I went up to the bees this morning.

I had unmarked queens in three of the four hives (just couldn't find them, despite following instructions posted on the forum a while back), one hive swarmed at 10.30 (first swarm for me - it's back in a brood box as I type, not sure how long it will stay there) and I did an artificial swarm on another, using the technique outlined by Cramp, having got no reply when I phoned my mentor:

1. Remove all queen cells (!)
2. Split colony into two, both halves with eggs and young brood
3. Move one half to somewhere else in the apiary
4. Block the entrance of the moved box with grass (to give moved bees chance to reorientate to new hive position)
5. After three days check both halves: the queen is in the one with eggs, the other should have queen cells
6. Remove all but one queen cell and wait, or introduce a laying queen.

Think I'll try introducing a laying queen - £20 fine for not being properly prepared!

It would be good to read some comments from experienced beeks who may have tried both methods, although like you, I'd rather be able to find the queen.

 

[richardbees]

as I type, not sure how long it will stay there

I put a QE between the bb and the floor for the first few days after hiving a swarm....
as once they've drawn a bit of comb and she's laid a few eggs it's safe to assume they'll stay.

 

[VEG]

as I type, not sure how long it will stay there

I put a QE between the bb and the floor for the first few days after hiving a swarm....
as once they've drawn a bit of comb and she's laid a few eggs it's safe to assume they'll stay.

will only lay eggs if the queen has mated what if a virgin is in the hive trying to get out to mate?

 

[richardbees]

Craig - yes, you're right

but I still do it.....let's say 3 days before removing the QE

By then they'll have drawn comb and she can go on her mating flight without them absconding.

 

[susbees]

Craig - yes, you're right

but I still do it.....let's say 3 days before removing the QE

By then they'll have drawn comb and she can go on her mating flight without them absconding.

 

[mbc]

Now, easier said than done to get all the bees out of the old BB, and when I'm doing it again I'll probably use a third box (frames out of the old, bees brushed into the new, and frames back into the third - third then goes on top as 2) and the old BB goes for cleaning).

QUOTE]

Sounds like a good scheme, but wouldnt it be easier to leave the old box in situ and brush or shake the bees off the frames into this box before transferring them to the empty box (with the frames out on the grass ready to replace the ones you're removing), with the added benefit of if the queen happened to be hiding on the floor, she would already be where you want her.
I think in practice, most times when you start removing bees from brood frames, if you are looking for her, you will see the queen on one of the frames as you're doing it.

 

[Salamagundy]

as I type, not sure how long it will stay there

I put a QE between the bb and the floor for the first few days after hiving a swarm....
as once they've drawn a bit of comb and she's laid a few eggs it's safe to assume they'll stay.

Thanks, Richardbees. I'll do that this morning.

 

[scuttlefish]

Sounds like a good scheme, but wouldnt it be easier to leave the old box in situ and brush or shake the bees off the frames into this box before transferring them to the empty box (with the frames out on the grass ready to replace the ones you're removing), with the added benefit of if the queen happened to be hiding on the floor, she would already be where you want her.
I think in practice, most times when you start removing bees from brood frames, if you are looking for her, you will see the queen on one of the frames as you're doing it.

With practice, maybe... marked and all as she is I just couldn't find her that time!

I did have the same thought afterwards about leaving the old box in place - i.e. just swapping out all bar one frame of brood for fresh foundation, leaving all the bees behind in the old box, then putting the new box on top after breaking down all but one queen cell. It certainly would be easier! I wonder though will that 'count' with the bees as having swarmed if they are still in the same box - i.e. is it enough to just remove the brood from the queen & adult bees, or is the change of box also important for the "swarm"?

 

[oliver90owner]

I do like mbc, so much easier than messing around with the old brood box.

All bees into the old box, only 8 or 9 frames to shake in (and one to be more careful with!).

Never actally done an A/S that way, but to find a drone layer, that would be my plan - a 'similar' procedure.

 

[flemage]

Thanks scuttlefish!

I have printed off and will keep for the time i cant find her and end up scratching head / pulling out hair.

 

[alanf]

I wonder though will that 'count' with the bees as having swarmed if they are still in the same box - i.e. is it enough to just remove the brood from the queen & adult bees, or is the change of box also important for the "swarm"?

Same box worked for me. Many authors suggest that reducing the population of nurse bees and providing lots of empty comb or foundation to expand into are likely to be the influential factors.

www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm for an online example

 

[Baggyone]

Had to do this the other day. I only go through brood boxes once up and return looking for queens. If I dont find them its shake off, frames into new box, new foundation or decent drawn comb in old box. QE then supers then put the new box with brood frames on top. Gave it two hours and went through the hive again. Plenty of bees covering the brood and found the queen in the bottom box. Introduced the snelgrove board and hopefully all is well.
It works in my experience.
Baggy