Queen bee size changes

[Antipodes]

But it is. They are replacing her as soon as they can just not killing her straightaway

I understand what you are saying, but just to be clear, I don't particularly agree that in my hives they built cells because of any specific intention to replace the queens that have been put in or are not accepting of them. Even on an immediate release, perhaps they start the cells off because of the time it takes for the new queen in the cage to be released ... her pheromones are not sufficiently throughout the hive during that time. It's just that they keep going with them once they are underway! I'm confident that they won't replace the new queens in my hives any time soon. They are happy with them. They are powerful, young and well-bred queens. There is no problem with acceptance and the queens are laying. Even the hive that I can't get into now, I'm confident that they will be ok because Jenkins has observed that even when capped, they seldom take the queen cells further.

 

[beeno]

Hi Antipodes,
I am a bit confused.
"Even on an immediate release, perhaps they start the cells off because of the time it takes for the new queen in the cage to be released ..."
The new queen is an imposter and as long as the colony has eggs or larva young enough to make a replacement queen from, the odds are they will do so and kill the queen or upon emergence one of the virgin queens will. With your bought in queens you should be conservative and remove the queen, wait 5 days and remove all emergency queen cells making them "hopelessly queenless", and then introduce the caged queen with cap in place. Quick lock after 3 days and if they seem friendly towards the queen take the tab off
(otherwise wait another three days). Check in three days that she is out and take the cage out and leave for a week before you look for eggs. If that does not work then you have to resort to introducing the next queen into a -Q nuc and unite when she is laying with the colony which should have been made hopelessly queenless.

 

[beeno]

After all that, if she is laying well and they start making Q cells. Tear them down twice and if that does not do it you will have to go with them, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Make sure they have enough room. Best of luck.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

With your bought in queens you should be conservative and remove the queen, wait 5 days and remove all emergency queen cells making them "hopelessly queenless", and then introduce the caged queen with cap in place.

I disagree - far more success with introducing the new queen in capped cage immediately on killing the old one removing the cap off the candy the following day unless the bees showing obvious agression towards her.

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Antipodes,
I am a bit confused.
"Even on an immediate release, perhaps they start the cells off because of the time it takes for the new queen in the cage to be released ..."
The new queen is an imposter and as long as the colony has eggs or larva young enough to make a replacement queen from, the odds are they will do so and kill the queen or upon emergence one of the virgin queens will. With your bought in queens you should be conservative and remove the queen, wait 5 days and remove all emergency queen cells making them "hopelessly queenless", and then introduce the caged queen with cap in place. Quick lock after 3 days and if they seem friendly towards the queen take the tab off
(otherwise wait another three days). Check in three days that she is out and take the cage out and leave for a week before you look for eggs. If that does not work then you have to resort to introducing the next queen into a -Q nuc and unite when she is laying with the colony which should have been made hopelessly queenless.

Sorry Beeno. It wasn't well worded. When I read that afterwards I thought it might be confusing. Immediate release should have been "immediate introduction " (in the cage) as opposed to waiting some days after removing the old queen before introducing the new caged one. Because of postage issues, my queens, even though express posted (which used to be next day), took 4 days to get here and I was keen to get them in the hives on the day they arrived. Because of time constraints, I pinched some time by removing the old queen (in full colonies), and also making up nucs whilst I was waiting for the queens to arrive. I also had hives where I needed to do an immediate introduction on killing of the old queen.
It didn't make any difference. They were all accepted fine. The only thing was that I generally noticed more emergency cells in the hives which were queenless for longer, but they all had them. What I am guessing is that as the queen is in the cage for a while within the hive and the workers outside the cage are eating through the little candy plug, the reduction of queen pheromones initiates emergency cell construction. Once they have been started, they keep going with them even though the queen is released into the hive from her cage.
I like the immediate introduction in the candy plug cage rather than wait, but unlike Jenkins, I let the bees eat through the candy and check in 4 to 5 days, if I can wait that long. His method probably is good because it means they might not make the emergency cells, but I'd be too scared to do that.

 

[Antipodes]

This is a photo of a cage used here. There is plastic at one end (hard to see) covering the candy from above. The blob of candy is quite large (it more or less fills the end circle) and the bees in the cages had eaten about 1/3 of it on arrival. I place between brood frames after making a cage sized hollow in the cells/brood to allow the bees to be "exposed" to the queen trough the wire on that side, and then wedge the cage between two frames with the candy plug end tilted upwards somewhat in case the hole is blocked by any dead attendants.

 

[beeno]

If you are letting them make QCs they are not accepting her they are replacing her. I would not trust them to tear them down.

 

[Antipodes]

If you are letting them make QCs they are not accepting her they are replacing her. I would not trust them to tear them down.

Yes, I've destroyed all the queen cells except for the hive that has turned odd. I reckon they had some in there too but I'll have to wait a while to see with them. Presumably if they start turning yellow she has survived. I'll recognise her too. It seems to me that they make the queen cells because they feel they have no queen for a period of time, not because they are not accepting the queens. Then, once started, they continue on with them until (presumably/hopefully) they come to grips with the fact that there are queens trying to emerge yet there is a laying queen in the hive. I suspect they ball the virgins then.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, I've destroyed all the queen cells except for the hive that has turned odd. I reckon they had some in there too but I'll have to wait a while to see with them. Presumably if they start turning yellow she has survived. I'll recognise her too. It seems to me that they make the queen cells because they feel they have no queen for a period of time, not because they are not accepting the queens. Then, once started, they continue on with them until (presumably/hopefully) they come to grips with the fact that there are queens trying to emerge yet there is a laying queen in the hive. I suspect they ball the virgins then.

I think it comes down to the fact that some colonies just like to make their own

 

[beeno]

Yes, I've destroyed all the queen cells except for the hive that has turned odd. I reckon they had some in there too but I'll have to wait a while to see with them. Presumably if they start turning yellow she has survived. I'll recognise her too. It seems to me that they make the queen cells because they feel they have no queen for a period of time, not because they are not accepting the queens. Then, once started, they continue on with them until (presumably/hopefully) they come to grips with the fact that there are queens trying to emerge yet there is a laying queen in the hive. I suspect they ball the virgins then.

Wishful thinking me thinks. A more likely scenario; when first virgin emerges your introduced queen will be killed by her as virgins will always win against a mated queen and this one is foreign to boot, then you will have swarms or they will fight until it is only one left. Re-queening in the UK is routinely done in August at the end of the season when many colonies have a brood break anyhow and swarm season on the whole is over. Admittedly, some do it in March with over wintered queens.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Re-queening in the UK is routinely done in August at the end of the season

really?

 

[Antipodes]

Wishful thinking me thinks. A more likely scenario; when first virgin emerges your introduced queen will be killed by her as virgins will always win against a mated queen and this one is foreign to boot, then you will have swarms or they will fight until it is only one left. Re-queening in the UK is routinely done in August at the end of the season when many colonies have a brood break anyhow and swarm season on the whole is over. Admittedly, some do it in March with over wintered queens.

Yes...definitely wishful. Hopefully the workers will stick up for their queen that is laying all those lovely eggs but you could be right that the introduced queen will be killed. As there is just the one hive which I can't open at the moment (and it's too late anyhow), that will be the only one where there will potentially be virgins. All the other queen cells in the other hives were terminated by me last week. I reckon it will still be another week before they will let me open it so I'll report back then . I'm finally able to walk properly again after the last inspection.

 

[North End Bees]

I reckon it will still be another week before they will let me open it so I'll report back then . I'm finally able to walk properly again after the last inspection.

I don't know if there'll be any difference between this week and next about the bees 'letting you' inspect them.

Suit up accordingly and find out what the situation is. By next week they may have decided to swarm on one of the new virgins. Or all of them

 

[Antipodes]

I don't know if there'll be any difference between this week and next about the bees 'letting you' inspect them.

Suit up accordingly and find out what the situation is. By next week they may have decided to swarm on one of the new virgins. Or all of them

I know there is a big, new accepted and laying queen in there. I saw her happily enjoying her new colony and a good lot of eggs from her last week. I have to weigh up the extremely unlikely event that they will swarm on one of the virgins (and don't forget, I don't know if there were even any emergency queen cells in there), with the highly likely scenario that they will be very unhappy. It's a hive comprised of 6 boxes so that's 48 frames that need careful inspection and most of the bees shaken off them. One thing was that when I found and removed the old queen, you know which frame she was on don't you? Yes, the 48th ...the last to be looked on at the far end of the last box...and that made that process longer than usual. They remember.

 

[Antipodes]

I've just remembered that the bees were so thick on the veil by the time I retreated last time, it was genuinely hard to see out of the veil. I can't imagine that I'd be able to see sufficiently to be able to do much inspecting past the first few boxes anyhow.

 

[Erichalfbee]

really?

June for me usually.
But not always.

 

[North End Bees]

I've just remembered that the bees were so thick on the veil by the time I retreated last time, it was genuinely hard to see out of the veil. I can't imagine that I'd be able to see sufficiently to be able to do much inspecting past the first few boxes anyhow.

I'd forgotten you're running langs with no QE so not so easy to cut straight to the brood.

In the UK people generally (not always) use QEs which makes a much simpler job of separating the brood box away from the supers. With far less bees to look through, and the returners flying to the supers on the original stand, it's a lot easier to check for queens/Q cells.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I know there is a big, new accepted and laying queen in there. I saw her happily enjoying her new colony and a good lot of eggs from her last week. ...........It's a hive comprised of 6 boxes so that's 48 frames that need careful inspection and most of the bees shaken off them.

It's a new queen - last thing you want to do is conduct a 'careful inspection' of them for a while whether it's eight or forty eight frames to check - guaranteed recipe for them balling the queen clattering about in the hive too much.
If you've seen the queen, released and laying, leave them be for a few weeks to get settled with her. It's a risk you have to take. Also, in a few weeks they may have settled down a bit with the new queen pheromones and be a bit more civil.

 

[beeno]

Sounds to me that you need to split them to regain control even if it is on a temporary basis. Most colonies that are aggressive are large ones!

 

[Antipodes]

Sounds to me that you need to split them to regain control even if it is on a temporary basis. Most colonies that are aggressive are large ones!

Thanks Beeno. Those new queens produce workers that are not aggressive, so I'm expecting once they emerge and start to dominate the colony that I'll have a big booming hive to get me 100kg of leatherwood in January....best laid plans and all that