Queen bee size changes

[elainemary]

Can anyone please share information about the size changes to a queen bee during her life?

It seems to me that a newly emerged and unmated queen is not too much bigger than a worker (the initial size depends somewhat on how well the larva was fed), once mated however, she is somewhat larger in the abdomen, but how much...compared to her initial size? Then can anyone explain her size increase over time as she ages and becomes fully operational in a strong colony? To prepare for swarming she is slimmed down...but by how much etc.? What is it inside the queen that is changing size?
Thanks

Hi
I’ve also noticed that queens slim right down when they stop egg laying in autumn, looking more like virgin queens again rather than mated queens.

Here’s an extract from some research which helps explain why (Journal of Apiculture Seasonal Physiological changes in queen & worker bees. Shehata, Townsend & Shuel)

“Queens were relatively heavy and had large, well developed ovaries in the early summer. This condition coincided with a period of intensive egg laying. Ovary development was accompanied by a large drop in fat-body lipids and a significant increase in fat-body protein. Ovaries of laying queens were about 8 times as large as those of virgins. Between November and January, when no eggs were laid, queens were lighter and had smaller, less-developed ovaries. The weight of workers remained essentially unchanged throughout the year. Fat-body stores in both queens and workers were high in summer, then declined during September and October. A gradual build-up in queen fat-body stores began in November and continued through March. Total stores in the worker fat-body rose sharply in November, then fell again in December and January.

The concept of ‘summer bees’ and ‘winter bees’ appeared to be appropriate to queens as well as to workers.”

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Excellent Beeno. Thanks.

Do you think the queen in my photo is mated?

Difficult to say with that photo, quite possibly, however if she is, then she will be laying a few days later.

 

[beeno]

Excellent Beeno. Thanks.

Excellent Beeno. Thanks.

Do you think the queen in my photo is mated?

If I have to guess, I would say she is mated because the abdominal segmentation seems stretched. I take it she has not started laying yet?

 

[Antipodes]

What a sweet thought of queens mating under the moon and stars.............or am I wrong in thinking that she's tucked up in bed at that time of night....

She's gotta be tucked up in bed...plenty of bats to get her if she flew at night anyhow!

 

[Antipodes]

If I have to guess, I would say she is mated because the abdominal segmentation seems stretched. I take it she has not started laying yet?

Well...I don't know if she is laying actually. The queen in question is in a colony I bought which had been unmanaged for a while, but strong. I thinned it out a few weeks back by taking away brood and opened up the brood area. I was surprised to find these opened queen cells a couple of days ago. I went through the entire colony looking for the queens that had clearly emerged from the cells but only found the one in the first photo. There were eggs throughout the colony and brood in all stages. I don't think they swarmed...yet. I agree that the abdominal section looks a little stretched, so I thought possibly mated too, but nothing like an older mated queen, so I suppose that is one reason why I was asking the questions about size...wondering when, if at all, she may get bigger?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well...I don't know if she is laying actually.
I was surprised to find these opened queen cells a couple of days ago. I went through the entire colony looking for the queens that had clearly emerged from the cells but only found the one in the first photo. There were eggs throughout the colony and brood in all stages.

Then surely she must be laying

 

[rolande]

Not noticed it mentioned in this thread but I may have missed a post somewhere, my experience has been that the newly emerged virgin is bigger than she will be 24 hours later once her body has hardened up - and I've seen enough to know that it's not an optical illusion!

 

[Antipodes]

Then surely she must be laying

I didn't think it is necessarily that queen that is laying because it could be a supersedure, with the old queen still in there and laying the eggs (I could have missed her in my search). Against that however was that there were at least 4 and perhaps 5 emptied queen cells. Is that too many for a supersedure?

 

[Antipodes]

Not noticed it mentioned in this thread but I may have missed a post somewhere, my experience has been that the newly emerged virgin is bigger than she will be 24 hours later once her body has hardened up - and I've seen enough to know that it's not an optical illusion!

Thanks,, yes, I have some queens in mini nucs at the moment who are refusing to mate, and they are noticeably smaller now than they were to start with.

 

[beeno]

I didn't think it is necessarily that queen that is laying because it could be a supersedure, with the old queen still in there and laying the eggs (I could have missed her in my search). Against that however was that there were at least 4 and perhaps 5 emptied queen cells. Is that too many for a supersedure?

On that frame you have one QC that has had its content removed by the workers (hole in side of the cell) probably after being stung by the one emerged QC and the other little one looks unviable. Perhaps these are old QC and this is the ruling Q that was there all along. You better mark her and see if another one turns up. Difficult to see how broad your Q is in that picture, but they do not come as a standard size and she will vary according to whether she is being fed up for a laying cycle or being slowed down. She looks nice enough though IMHO.

 

[Antipodes]

You can see here from these photos I took today that an old unmated virgin queen is comparatively small in some instances. She looks like a queen bee, only smaller.

 

[Antipodes]

And another similar queen....just look for the smallest bee...

 

[Curly green finger's]

And another similar queen....just look for the smallest bee...

Nice picture, that's a virgin queen??
Queen bees seem to have a more rounded thorax than workers or drones.
That's some nice pure stock you have there Antipodes.

 

[Antipodes]

Nice picture, that's a virgin queen??
Queen bees seem to have a more rounded thorax than workers or drones.
That's some nice pure stock you have there Antipodes.

Yes, queen there with not so much hair on the top of the thorax and yellow bigger looking legs.

If they don't mate today, I don't think they ever will so I'll combine some of the nucs and add a new cell.

I just noticed that the last photo shows the braula fly on the thorax of three bees.

 

[Madge]

... If they don't mate today, I don't think they ever will so I'll combine some of the nucs and add a new cell. ...

When did she emerge? (Sorry if you’ve already mentioned it somewhere.)

How would you know if she (or they) got mated without waiting to see if they’re laying? You’re not opening their hives every day, are you, and base your guess on her size?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Yes, queen there with not so much hair on the top of the thorax and yellow bigger looking legs.

If they don't mate today, I don't think they ever will so I'll combine some of the nucs and add a new cell.

I just noticed that the last photo shows the braula fly on the thorax of three bees.

I've counted four braula flys,
I think you might have to be more patient for her to mate.
When did she emerge?

 

[Antipodes]

When did she emerge? (Sorry if you’ve already mentioned it somewhere.)

How would you know if she (or they) got mated without waiting to see if they’re laying? You’re not opening their hives every day, are you, and base your guess on her size?

Emerged on the 20th and today is the 11th and it has just got dark.

Yes, firstly I'm checking on their size at the end of every day now and checking for eggs just in case they mate and don't increase in size.

I'm also keenly observing any changes to the worker bee's attitude towards me

 

[Antipodes]

I've counted four braula flys,
I think you might have to be more patient for her to mate.
When did she emerge?

You're absolutely correct. Four it is!

 

[Madge]

Emerged on the 20th and today is the 11th and it has just got dark.

Yes, firstly I'm checking on their size at the end of every day now and checking for eggs just in case they mate and don't increase in size.

I'm also keenly observing any changes to the worker bee's attitude towards me

I would leave them well alone. Definitely don't check every day. I think, leave them now for a couple of weeks at least. Firstly, because you don't want to be in the way when she planned a mating flight, or returns from one. And secondly, once mated, I would worry that daily checking will interfere with her starting to lay.

By the way, I've had a colony recently where the queen took about two months before laying, and she's now laying nice slabs of brood. They might have fooled me and used an egg from a test frame somewhere else, well-hidden - but I doubt it.

 

[beeno]

Yes, queen there with not so much hair on the top of the thorax and yellow bigger looking legs.

If they don't mate today, I don't think they ever will so I'll combine some of the nucs and add a new cell.

I just noticed that the last photo shows the braula fly on the thorax of three bees.

Hi Antipodes, The camera does lie, but on the face of it would you buy a queen with that look? I think what you have got there is an intercaste queen where all the queen gene expressions that a queen should have, have not kicked in due to insufficient nutrition & warmth i.e. not enough nurse bees in the cell raiser colony, larvae come away from the royal jelly plug, a too old larva has been used if reared from emergency cell, disease and probably a million other reasons which we don't know about. She is a reject.