No room in the brood box.....

[VixyB]

I have a weak colony of bees that were queenless a few weeks ago. I was offered a small colony with a laying queen and so united them. I left them alone for 2 weeks and on inspection there was no eggs, larvae or brood. They had also filled the space with food. I have been feeding them for about 3 weeks because they didn't have many stores.

I tried putting two empty frames in the centre to encourage eggs to be laid, but a week later, the bees are just continuing to fill the frames will food.

There is no sign of a queen, but I am a newbie and perhaps just haven't been able to spot her. My local bee inspector also took a look and he can't see her either. He did say that the bees are behaving as if they have a queen though.

They have a super on the top with a very small amount of honey. It was underneath (on the advice of my local association), but the bee inspector advised me to put it back on top.

Any ideas of what I can do to try and save them. I am really worried that I won't have a colony left in a few weeks.

Thanks

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

If you think they are Q+ now despite some evidence to the contrary, how do you know they were Q- before the unite?

To explain why I am asking, your risk, is that you were not Q- but had a Q who was off lay and has now killed the one who was on lay. So it's a genuine enquiry, not a leading question or anything.

 

[VixyB]

There had been a period of 2 - 3 weeks with no eggs, larvae or sealed brood before the unite and there were 2 queen cells in the brood box.

The bee inspector had also had a good look before the unite and also couldn't see anything.

Half way through the 2 weeks of uniting when I left them alone, there was a queen on the landing board with 5 attendants round her, so I suspect she was being evicted.

I have no idea what is going on with them but am really worried about them. I just want to explore all the options rather than just waiting to see if they die.

My local association isn't very helpful and I don't have any contacts other than the bee inspector to ask to come and have a look.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

What did you do with the queen cells? <ADD> There is a potential inconsistency between "no eggs, larvae or sealed brood" and Queen cells, unless you mean play cups (no contents) but the first idea is that the Q had swarmed; I am trying to establish the facts to help you analyse the situation. With any luck you have a Q in there.<ADD>

 

[VixyB]

There were two sealed queen cells and the more experienced beekeeper said not to worry about them when the colonies were united. Before the unite there were no eggs, 2 sealed queen cells and about 3 larvae. Now there is nothing and all the space is filled with food and pollen. I put two empty frames in that were partly drawn and they are filling those with food as well.

I am hoping that there might be a new queen hiding in there somewhere and that she might start laying.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There were two sealed queen cells and the more experienced beekeeper said not to worry about them when the colonies were united.

Stupid advice really

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

"Before the unite there were no eggs, 2 sealed queen cells and about 3 larvae." Sounds a lot like supersedure of a failed Q and a possibility that the QCs were raised on drone brood. Less like a swarm. When you inspected after 2 weeks, what did you see in that area? QCs that had emerged? QCs that had been torn down? What was where the larvae had been? Drone muffin tops? Sealed workers? If you don't remember just say and we'll work with it. Most likely, if there is a Q in there it is the one from the other colony and most likely your best strategy is to treat for varroa, feed and wait hopefully.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The real puzzle is the Q you saw. If you saw emerged QCs then that Q was probably on a mating flight. Different Q, same strategy.

 

[VixyB]

There was no sign of the queen cells at all and there was just food where the few larvae had been. There has been no sign of any drone brood for a long time and even when the queen was laying well, there was very little.

 

[VixyB]

Stupid advice really

Yep!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I assume (dangerous thing to do) that you have stopped feeding them? I think that was partly the problem - you were piling food on and they were making hay and packing it in everywhere.
Has the super foundation or drawn comb?
Queen excluder?
Do you have any drawn comb brood frames available?
How full is full
Any brood of any kind evident?
Any polished cells?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

There was no sign of the queen cells at all and there was just food where the few larvae had been.

If your timings are accurate that suggests the whole lot was ripped out by the new bees, suggesting it was drone brood. But the Q on the board is a puzzle. Drone brood is not a sign of strength here, obviously. I'll leave you with JBM; he is wildly more experienced than me.

 

[VixyB]

I assume (dangerous thing to do) that you have stopped feeding them? I think that was partly the problem - you were piling food on and they were making hay and packing it in everywhere.
Has the super foundation or drawn comb?
Queen excluder?
Do you have any drawn comb brood frames available?
How full is full
Any brood of any kind evident?
Any polished cells?

Yes, have stopped feeding them.

The super has a mixture. Maybe 4 or 5 frames of drawn foundation.

There are no fully drawn comb brood frames available. The two empty ones I put in a couple of weeks ago are partyly drawn but had started to be filled with food.

No QX.

By full I mean absolutely full except on the two new frames.

There is no brood at all.

No polished cells as far as I can tell because they are all full of food.

Thanks

 

[VixyB]

If your timings are accurate that suggests the whole lot was ripped out by the new bees, suggesting it was drone brood. But the Q on the board is a puzzle. Drone brood is not a sign of strength here, obviously. I'll leave you with JBM; he is wildly more experienced than me.

Thank you for trying to help!!!!!!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Are you CERTAIN what you saw was a Q not a drone?

 

[VixyB]

Yes, definetly a queen. There were 5 attendants fussing round her. Definetly a pointy bottom and thinner with smaller eyes.

 

[VixyB]

Much fewer bees in the hive today. Probably only about 5,000. They are very quiet and still no sign of the queen or any laying.

Very sad!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Yes it doesn't look good, but you never know. But you might want to line up TWO alternative colonies next year. Are/were the bees very diferent races?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Had a long think about this and to be honest, there's not much more you can do but wait and hope: they now have room to move stores up (into the super) and if there's a queen in there that wants to lay, they will move it (if they've capped all the stores then bruise a few frames towards the centre of the brood chamber to encourage them.) I had a nuc waiting for the queen to mate during the heavy flow last year - in less than a week they'd filled every available space with stores, nevertheless, after giving them some more space the next time I checked they'd shifted the stores and the newly mated queen was laying on three empty frames that had been choc a block with honey the last time I'd looked.
I know hindsight is a fine thing, but I would never have united with QC's in the Q- colony - I'd have taken them down and left the bees for a few days before attempting the unite, I think the 'experienced' beekeeper was just talking out of ignorance. Someone exponded a theory to me a few years ago with regards quen introduction whhich could apply here and although the theory is just that, I'd prefer not to take the chance as it doesn't cost anything - I'll give the whole thing anyway: If a queenless colony has no queen at all but has only been Q- a few hours then introducing a new mated queen is not too much trouble as they are not yet used to being a 'republic', you just have the pheremone problem to surmount (that's why I ntroduce a new queen only a few hours after making them Q- wherever possible.)
If bees have established QC's in the hive then they are expecting to have a virgin queen kicking around shortly thus they may not take kindly to a mated queen turning up on the scene - which is what, in essence you did. Not very scientific I know, but why take the risk.

 

[VixyB]

Thank you Jenkinsbrynmair. I certainly know more for next time!!

I think the biggest learning point for me has been to go with my gut instinct (which was to remove the QC's) and not always listen to someone who I think has more knowledge and experience than me - in that moment.

Hopefully I will have more success next year and will certainly have more than just one hive!