need to do AS - but can't find queen.

[acabee]

This is a extension of my previous thread
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23571
which has dropped off the screen.

I tried doing an AS a few days back, but couldn't find unmarked queen. Tipped them out and ran back in separating the new lower BB with foundation from the upper old BB with brood using a QE. Went through both BBs with a fellow experienced beek. Alas, still couldn't find queen. But did see eggs in top old BB. So it's a possibility queen is very very very good at hiding/slimmed/ing down or very recently departed (died / flown off). 4 charged QCs on bottoms of frames.

I really need to separate the two BBs tomorrow otherwise one will very likely swarm (assuming HM can get through the QE and out the hive entrance if she is still in residence).

What would you do in this situation?

Advice very welcome!
Thanks

acabee

 

[Hivemaker.]

What would you do in this situation?

Break down any queen cells they have.

 

[beeno]

Hi acabee,
A demaree without having to find the queen. I am planning one myself because the chances of me finding the queen in this particular hive is very slim, so I am not even going to try or put them through it! Just waiting for the bees!

 

[oliver90owner]

Break down any queen cells they have.

Or remove them as a split.

 

[acabee]

Thanks Beeno / Hivemaker. I've not done a demaree before, but thought I needed to know where the queen is. So it's ok to assume she's in lower BB and destroy top BB QCs? This is my only hive so I'm somewhat cautious about being hopelessly queenless.

acabee

 

[acabee]

Thanks o90o. When you say 'split' do you mean remove top BB and move to new location in apiary? Or were you referring specifically to frames with QCs?

acabee.

 

[Outlander]

I have a colony that superceded last year and I have never seen her. She is there and I do the bees with Village Girl and believe me we have looked for her. So answer to your questioned I believe is yes.

 

[sherwood]

where are you based accabee I am in chorleywood if I can help

 

[acabee]

pm sent.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks Beeno / Hivemaker. I've not done a demaree before, but thought I needed to know where the queen is. So it's ok to assume she's in lower BB and destroy top BB QCs? This is my only hive so I'm somewhat cautious about being hopelessly queenless.

acabee

If you shake all the bees off the frames into the bottom brood box put the QX on (thus all the bees will be in the bottom box) - brood frames then go into the top BB - all the nurse bees will move up to cover the brood thus you can safely presume the queen is in the bottom with the foundation - job done!

 

[Beanwood]

If you shake all the bees off the frames into the bottom brood box put the QX on (thus all the bees will be in the bottom box) - brood frames then go into the top BB - all the nurse bees will move up to cover the brood thus you can safely presume the queen is in the bottom with the foundation - job done!

This is the crux of the Horsley board method I hope to try later this year.

My experience of this method is only theory so far though....

 

[Little John]

If you shake all the bees off the frames into the bottom brood box put the QX on (thus all the bees will be in the bottom box) - brood frames then go into the top BB - all the nurse bees will move up to cover the brood thus you can safely presume the queen is in the bottom with the foundation - job done!

The only thing I don't understand about using foundation in the lower box (using drawn comb, no probs) - is how is this foundation going to get drawn, i.e. from what carb supply ?

In a true swarm situation, the bees are 'pre-loaded' as it were, with honey in order to draw comb PDQ - but in this artificial situation, the only carbs coming into the hive will be in the form of nectar. Is that going to provide enough carbohydrate for the reduced workforce in the lower box to draw comb within a reasonable timescale ?

LJ

 

[Erichalfbee]

The only thing I don't understand about using foundation in the lower box (using drawn comb, no probs) - is how is this foundation going to get drawn, i.e. from what carb supply ?

In a true swarm situation, the bees are 'pre-loaded' as it were, with honey in order to draw comb PDQ - but in this artificial situation, the only carbs coming into the hive will be in the form of nectar. Is that going to provide enough carbohydrate for the reduced workforce in the lower box to draw comb within a reasonable timescale ?

LJ

If you are doing an AS without finding the queen as JB says, ALL your foragers are in this box.
Once you have moved the top box to the side the following day put the super back on.

 

[psafloyd]

Doesn't the shaking of frames (potentially) damage QCs, even if capped?

If you shake all the bees off the frames into the bottom brood box put the QX on (thus all the bees will be in the bottom box) - brood frames then go into the top BB - all the nurse bees will move up to cover the brood thus you can safely presume the queen is in the bottom with the foundation - job done!

 

[Finman]

.
If you do not find a queen, you may use queen cell in the swarm part.

.

 

[oliver90owner]

Looked back carefully at the OP after posting after Hivemaker (with tongue in cheek!).

If you had separated (but not demareed) them and there were eggs in the top box after three days you know the queen is in that box.

You said:

Tipped them out and ran back in separating the new lower BB with foundation from the upper old BB with brood using a QE.

Either you did not do a very good job or she can get through the Q/E.

Doing a trick like that, you must leave some drawn comb and brood in the bottom box. It is not good practice to leave a laying queen with nowhere to lay.

Thanks o90o. When you say 'split'...

I mean just that. In your situation, I would split three or four ways with a queen cell in each and some foundation for them to go at. If the queen was in one she would be less likely to go as the colony had been so weakened and the queen cell in that section would be broken down. You should find which box she was in, if still there, after three days by looking for eggs.

 

[beeno]

Hi acabee,
It may be my turn today to start the demaree, but I hope not. This is what I am going to do if I find queen cells with larvae in.
1. Brush all bees into bottom box (stirred not shaken as not to damage QC).
2. Put all brood clean of bees in top box and leave the no of QC you have in mind. Me 1.
3. Bottom box, two three drawn combs plus foundation and syrup. I am putting no brood in as I am not going to encourage them to build QC.
4. QE between boxes. Theory is that all the nurse bees will crawl into top box to look after brood. Flyers and Q will be left in bottom box.
5. Crown board between boxes when above achieved. They are now two colonies.
5. I will have QE on the flyers both ends until I see pollen going in so that the queen cannot swarm.
Sounds so simple does it not? To work!

 

[acabee]

Thanks everyone for advice and thoughts. I took hivemaker's advice in the end and took out the QCs. Still couldn't find HM.
Will check again on Saturday to see what is happening.
Good luck Beeno!
acabee

 

[Little John]

If you are doing an AS without finding the queen as JB says, ALL your foragers are in this box.

Yes foragers - who will bring in nectar, as I said. Is that going to be enough which which to draw comb at a reasonable rate ?

Once you have moved the top box to the side the following day put the super back on.

What is that going to do ? When doing a Demaree AS, the supers between the 2 brood boxes are supposed to be either empty or contain empty comb - they are only there to weaken the level of queen's pheromone, and yet keep the workers within the same box. Nothing is "moved to the side" for at least a week - at least that's my understanding.

The whole idea of this procedure is to mimic a genuine swarm: a situation in which there are no stores in place to call upon.

Unless an effort is made to mimic a genuine swarm situation, I would suggest that swarming will still take place after an AS, because the bees have not been sufficiently fooled.

LJ

 

[beeno]

Thanks everyone for advice and thoughts. I took hivemaker's advice in the end and took out the QCs. Still couldn't find HM.
Will check again on Saturday to see what is happening.
Good luck Beeno!
acabee

Hi acabee,
Chicken! Mine did not have any QC just drawn new play cups on this one frame. They are in and out of them but empty. They are certainly teasing me! However, lots of pollen going in today and lots of larvae, but not that many eggs. Fragmented hard disc as itma said!