Mentor Stumped

[SteveJ]

Ok had a phone call from one of my Mentees today and this one has me stumped.

She had one hive in which we found unsealed queen cells. Call it Hive 1. We found the queen and then split the colony into a second hive (Hive 2). So Hive 1 had the queen a couple of drawn frames of stores, the rest foundation in the old location. Hive 2 was move to a new location along with brood and unsealed queen cells.

Today her husband noticed what looked to be a swarm on the grass in front of Hive 2 all marching in, and it looks like they all went in.

So this would be a swarm taking over the colony. Now if there was a mated queen she would go in and in a couple of days start laying. Would the swarm destroy the existing Queen Cells?

If it is a virgin going in we wouldn't know if there was a queen in the hive or not until she was mated, so I would be a bit loath to destroy the QC's, so I'm thinking we have to risk them swarming. Anybody any thoughts?

SteveJ

 

[jaybee76]

When did you perform the AS? When do you expect the new Queens to emerge or could you have missed some sealed queen cells to push the timeline along?

 

[SteveJ]

AS performed last friday

 

[dexter's shed]

I think you did the AS far to early,

the husband thought it was a swarm ?? but it might not have been, this hive had the still uncapped cells in right??

could have just been the bees coming out en mass and going back in, have had that happen a few times myself

I'd just leave them alone, and check in a week or so

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think you did the AS far to early,

Now that is terrible advice! when do you reckon they should have A/S'ed? after the QC's were capped and the queen swarmed?

Hive with unsealed QC's - A/S ASAP (that was done correctly), take down all QC's bar one (OK you missed that part) go back in three or four days later and take down any fresh QC's in both hives.
If thre was an older QC there my feeling is they would have swarmed before the A/S so it is a strange one, but we don't really know what this group of bees your student's husband saw really.
Go back in today - reduce QC's down to one in 'Q-' hive, take all emergency cells down in Q+ (if she's still there.
Go back in on day 7 and cull any extra QC's again.
Sit back and see what develops.

 

[Chris B]

Possible explanation:

old queen was clipped and decided to swarm anyway, and dropped to the ground closer to hive 2 than hive 1. (possibly related to a missed q cell).

Either way, it's better to make a decision based on a new inspection, not one from last week. You can afford to wait until Friday or the weekend, as there is no chance of a swarm before then from hive 2 (virgins won't hatch until then, and incoming queen is either clipped or dead).

 

[SteveJ]

Old queen still there in old location.

You can't AS to early. As soon as I see a charged and loaded QC I split. You don't know how long the cells been there so have no idea when it is going to be sealed. If it is sealed the old Queen has probably already gone or is going very soon.

Judging by the swarm that is sat in the hedge I think we missed a sealed cell and the new hive has swarmed. I think the weather last week held the old queen back from swarming so we got them split just in time.

Todays the first decent day weather wise we've had for a few weeks. Its either been too windy or too cold.

SteveJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Old queen still there in old location.

You can't AS to early. As soon as I see a charged and loaded QC I split. You don't know how long the cells been there so have no idea when it is going to be sealed. If it is sealed the old Queen has probably already gone or is going very soon.

Judging by the swarm that is sat in the hedge I think we missed a sealed cell and the new hive has swarmed. I think the weather last week held the old queen back from swarming so we got them split just in time.

Todays the first decent day weather wise we've had for a few weeks. Its either been too windy or too cold.

SteveJ

could well be the case,had a few hives this year with numerous sealed QC's yet the queen was still in there and laying. as you say - there is never such a thing as conducting an A/S too early. Look at the Demarree method - if there ae any sign of QC's there - you're already too late!

 

[dexter's shed]

You can't AS to early. As soon as I see a charged and loaded QC

but you didn't say that in your opening post, you said.... unsealed queen cells.
no mention of them being charged and loaded,

 

[itma]

...
Judging by the swarm that is sat in the hedge I think we missed a sealed cell and the new hive has swarmed. I think the weather last week held the old queen back from swarming so we got them split just in time.

Todays the first decent day weather wise we've had for a few weeks. Its either been too windy or too cold.

I haven't noticed your referring to reducing the QCs.
Indeed you actually said "Hive 2 was move to a new location along with brood and unsealed queen cells."

When performing the AS it is best to select a single large and well-filled open QC (mark its frame with a drawing pin). And cull all the others.
And then, exactly 7 days after the AS, go through them again and - after checking on the chosen cell as still present, but now sealed and looking like emerging soon - cull all the additional QCs that they may have started since your first cull.

To ensure an absence of cast swarms, both these culling checks need to be very thorough.
The chosen QC frame needs to be brushed clear of bees to permit proper inspection (both times).
All the other frames should be shaken free of bees for both these inspections (and culls) - just don't shake the frame with your chosen QC!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but you didn't say that in your opening post, you said.... unsealed queen cells.
no mention of them being charged and loaded,

If they ain't charged, they ain't queen cells - simples

 

[dexter's shed]

If they ain't charged, they ain't queen cells - simples

my point with saying, an A/S was done to early, because from the first description, they were not queen cells

 

[Erichalfbee]

**************

 

[Glenviewbee]

my point with saying, an A/S was done to early, because from the first description, they were not queen cells

Err the first description said they were unsealed queen cells..... therefore they were unsealed cells that were charged with larva and royal jelly, thereby making them into queen cells therefore prompting the A/S......

 

[dexter's shed]

Err the first description said they were unsealed queen cells..... therefore they were unsealed cells that were charged with larva and royal jelly, thereby making them into queen cells therefore prompting the A/S......

god almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your adding words
it said unsealed queen cells, no mention of larvae and jelly, I've seen plenty of EMPTY queen cells which of course are therefore UNSEALED, it does not make me do an A/S,

 

[SteveJ]

I don't class a Queen Cell as a Queen Cell unless it has an egg and some royal jelly.
SteveJ

 

[Glenviewbee]

SteveJ - that's what I thought

 

[Hivemaker.]

I would be a bit loath to destroy the QC's, so I'm thinking we have to risk them swarming.

SteveJ

I've seen plenty of EMPTY queen cells which of course are therefore UNSEALED, it does not make me do an A/S,

Why would he be loath to destroy the queen cells if they had nothing in them, empty?

 

[Thymallus]

I've seen plenty of EMPTY queen cells which of course are therefore UNSEALED, it does not make me do an A/S,

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean shallow queen cups that are empty? Or do you mean elongated drawn out cups (becoming queen cells) that are empty?
I've found an occasional elongated cell that is empty ( or failed0, but there are always others with larvae in royal jelly in the same hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

when you're up to your neck in a hole........................................................