inspection done, no queen & some queen cells. what next!

[irishguy]

Went ahead and done the inspection in both hives and the weakest hive had no queen or eggs. There was still plenty of brood and larvae. I took my time with this inspection because I didn't come across the queen last week thou there was some eggs last week. This queen had its wings clipped so couldn't have swarmed and I dint think I've squashed her either

In my strongest hive, there was also queen cells with larvae inside. I culled these as soon as I found the queen in this hive.

What will I do now concerning the hive with no queen.

 

[burren]

Hi Irishguy.
May be she attempted to swarm and fell to the ground outside hive. You are sure there were no empty play cells or queen cells last week that may have been missed? Will you be doing a AS on the other hive?

 

[enrico]

Take a frame of eggs from your strong hive and put them in your weak hive. That will test to make sure you are queenless. Your strong hive needs to have its swarming instinct squashed and removing queen cells won't do that. Consider doing an artificial swarm. If your wek hive is queenless and you get no queen cells from the frame of eggs you can always combine them with one half of the as!
E

 

[Erichalfbee]

Your clipped queen HAS swarmed and likely perished. Before you decide how to mitigate her loss you need to tell us what is left behind. How many queen cells are there?

Re the other hive, knocking back queen cells will get you nowhere once they are in swarm mode. They will just make more and on even older larvae and will be off before you know it. You must Artificially Swarm the colony. Pagden is a tried and trusted method
Have a look at this also

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Went ahead and done the inspection in both hives and the weakest hive had no queen or eggs. There was still plenty of brood and larvae. I took my time with this inspection because I didn't come across the queen last week thou there was some eggs last week. This queen had its wings clipped so couldn't have swarmed and I dint think I've squashed her either



In my strongest hive, there was also queen cells with larvae inside. I culled these as soon as I found the queen in this hive.



What will I do now concerning the hive with no queen.

That's not your issue. The other one is.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Your clipped queen HAS swarmed and likely perished. Before you decide how to mitigate her loss you need to tell us what is left behind. How many queen cells are there?

Re the other hive, knocking back queen cells will get you nowhere once they are in swarm mode. They will just make more and on even older larvae and will be off before you know it. You must Artificially Swarm the colony. Pagden is a tried and trusted method
Have a look at this also

Couldn't put it better myself. People have to learn that just knocking off all the queen cells is not the answer to anything apart from ' how can I bu**er up my colony.
Without more info i would suggest that the now Q- hive be reduced to one unsealed or two sealed QC's and an inspection of the still (hopefully) Q+ hive in three to four days where, if there are more QC's then Pagden it

 

[ratcatcher]

Went ahead and done the inspection in both hives and the weakest hive had no queen or eggs. There was still plenty of brood and larvae. I took my time with this inspection because I didn't come across the queen last week thou there was some eggs last week. This queen had its wings clipped so couldn't have swarmed and I dint think I've squashed her either

In my strongest hive, there was also queen cells with larvae inside. I culled these as soon as I found the queen in this hive.

What will I do now concerning the hive with no queen.

if it were me, rather than culling all those QC, I would of transferred a couple to the q- hive, then done an AS with the q+ one

 

[davidchevell]

Queen cells

Sorry you are in a fix , but you have another colony so you can put a frame in the queenless colony , buy a queen or unit. Best lesson I have learnt , do not remove q cells until you have been through the hive and considered your options just mark the frames, as with many things there is more than one answer.

 

[oliver90owner]

Erichalfbee and backed up by JBM.

Clipping both wings, unless virtually removing them is, erm, a bit of a peculiar thing to do, to say the least.

Knocking down queen cells in this situation, by new beeks in particular, is crazy advice to be given or really duff to learn.

Beekeeping books comes to mind, once again, before plunging in at the very deep end.

And we have yet another beekeeper worrying about his Q- colony while not apparently concerned with the colony about to possibly swarm in the next couple of days and possibly throw away any chance of new eggs for the next month.

Attend to the queen cell problem NOW.

 

[jp19sqn]

All very good advice Oliver..... We need to look at why this is a constant theme on this forum. Folks are leaving classes, cleared solo with their bees and yet they are not able to tackle the first basic manipulation, the AS. It cannot be their fault, it has to be the training they are receiving. Associations seem more keen to build pots of money than invest that money in proper training facilities and courseware. no-one should be leaving a course without the confidence to perform a Pagden at the very least. We spend more time worry beading about disease than the things that really can damage bee health, feral colonies springing up due to poor swarm control/prevention.

I think all associations need to take a review of what and how they train. My own experience was gained by being mentored by a beekeeping great, so I was lucky. I was apprentice to a beekeeper with between 60-100 hives depending on the time of year. I hear people who have allegedly taken an association course, asking questions that should have been addressed and instilled as mantras.

Part of the issue is that associations do not standardise their techniques for new members. I personally rejoice in all of the different methods and techniques in keeping bees, but these are taught through experience and exposure. The new beekeeper needs one method of doing something that works. I found in my own association that there was total resistance to standardisation. We don't want the established beekeepers to change their ways of keeping their bees, we just need them to understand the methods that their association has standardised to and champion that. If a new beekeeper asks them how they keep their bees, then by all means tell them. If they ask how should I keep my bees, then push the standardised technique. Standardisation is the basis of every complex training system in the world, why should beekeepers be any different?

So in summary, I agree with all of the advice given to the OP, I sympathise entirely with the OP and completely understand their plight and why they are in this situation. I just urge all association members to bring standardisation to the attention of training officers. Without it we will be dealing with this every year and the losers?.......Bees.

 

[enrico]

All very good advice Oliver..... We need to look at why this is a constant theme on this forum. Folks are leaving classes, cleared solo with their bees and yet they are not able to tackle the first basic manipulation, the AS. It cannot be their fault, it has to be the training they are receiving. Associations seem more keen to build pots of money than invest that money in proper training facilities and courseware. no-one should be leaving a course without the confidence to perform a Pagden at the very least. We spend more time worry beading about disease than the things that really can damage bee health, feral colonies springing up due to poor swarm control/prevention.

I think all associations need to take a review of what and how they train. My own experience was gained by being mentored by a beekeeping great, so I was lucky. I was apprentice to a beekeeper with between 60-100 hives depending on the time of year. I hear people who have allegedly taken an association course, asking questions that should have been addressed and instilled as mantras.

Part of the issue is that associations do not standardise their techniques for new members. I personally rejoice in all of the different methods and techniques in keeping bees, but these are taught through experience and exposure. The new beekeeper needs one method of doing something that works. I found in my own association that there was total resistance to standardisation. We don't want the established beekeepers to change their ways of keeping their bees, we just need them to understand the methods that their association has standardised to and champion that. If a new beekeeper asks them how they keep their bees, then by all means tell them. If they ask how should I keep my bees, then push the standardised technique. Standardisation is the basis of every complex training system in the world, why should beekeepers be any different?

So in summary, I agree with all of the advice given to the OP, I sympathise entirely with the OP and completely understand their plight and why they are in this situation. I just urge all association members to bring standardisation to the attention of training officers. Without it we will be dealing with this every year and the losers?.......Bees.

Now there's a presumption that everyone has been on a course! What makes you think for a minute that people take a course before keeping bees?
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

. We need to look at why this is a constant theme on this forum.

It cannot be their fault,

And why not? or is this the great British blame culture rearing it's ugly head again - 'it's never my fault - someone must be punished and sued'
I have met people who have been taught to A/S properly and who know what's required (Not by me BTW) but who steadfastly refuse to listen, they cry 'but I don't want them to swarm!' or 'I don't want any more hives - I've only got a small garden' and insist on just going in, ignore the warning signs and keep on knocking down QC's then come blubbing because their bees have swarmed regardless - again! and their colonies aren't viable going into winter. Beekeeping has become too fashionable - is nothing more than an accessory and must conform to the bee owner's (not keeper mind you) way of life/garden layout/colour of curtains etc. A case in point we've seen on here with the new craze of disposable beekeeping.

I just urge all association members to bring standardisation to the attention of training officers. .

Too simplistic a view IMHO I agree that with some associations it's all about topping up the coffers and once you've done your ten lessons your on your own (had to mop up a few of those messes I can tell you) But it's a bit like RYA qualifications some people rush out with their new tickets, buy a jaunty sailor's cap and then go out on the briny and cause chaos because they want to do it their way even though they've been taught the right way (others both apian and maritime BTW) walk away with pride and try their best to do it properly.

To sum it up the problem is:
a) people don't listen
b) People don't want to listen
c) People don't 'hear'

 

[Travelator]

All very good advice Oliver..... We need to look at why this is a constant theme on this forum. Folks are leaving classes, cleared solo with their bees and yet they are not able to tackle the first basic manipulation, the AS. It cannot be their fault, it has to be the training they are receiving. Associations seem more keen to build pots of money than invest that money in proper training facilities and courseware. no-one should be leaving a course without the confidence to perform a Pagden at the very least. We spend more time worry beading about disease than the things that really can damage bee health, feral colonies springing up due to poor swarm control/prevention.
...

Very interesting and thought-provoking.

I wonder whether the problem is that there are too many small associations all doing their best to lay on training with the volunteers available. Perhaps the beginners (at least those who can be bothered to submit to proper training) would be better served by fewer, more professionalised training providers. Although the mere thought of the politics involved in making that happen is making my head hurt.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd like to add that having taken a "course" some beginners do not reinforce their knowledge by accepting help, whether by mentor or attending their BKA apiary sessions. And that IS their fault .....horses and water.
The first apiary session this year at my association was an eye opener. A colony had swarmed,virgins were emerging and two needed artificial swarming. Absolutely wonderful experience of the traps that lay ahead yet there wasn't a single beginner there. What a shame!!! If they had seen what we older lags had to do they might have retained that a little better than practicing on a paper hive.

 

[oliver90owner]

JP

You know just as well as l, courses are one thing, proficiency is entirely different. As JBM

No pilot simply takes the course; they do not move up to fast jets after a course on a piper cherokee.

Even many drivers on the road do not know how to drive, even after passing the driving test -and I wonder if/how some have actually passed!

BKAs give nothing but an introduction and the basics to keeping bees. Their cohort does not need any prior qualifications. Need I go on? That is why a good basic grounding from good beekeeping books and subsequent learning is so important. Beekeeping is easy, so very easy, but the beekeeper has to be able to think, not jump in blindly. It is also very easy to get in a mess if there is no joined up thinking.

 

[Tonyatcwfarm]

Main problem as I see it is it all looks so easy for a newbie(I'm one btw)
Get bees then take honey!!!!
Don't blame the mentors they can only tell you so many times
Most important facet of beekeeping ATM is a/s
Later will be autumn feed and varoa treatments
After that it's oxalic or not
Think if you can do these steps year one you could/should be ok
It's good to have someone that you can ask or pm here that'll point you in the direction
The best bit of advice iv gotten is to get on with it and if you make a mistake be ready to correct it
Id reckon the biggest omission by mentors is telling a newbie that if he has 2 colonies he needs 4 full hives
Now I'm going out to mark and clip 4 nuc queens,upgrade a nuc to a full hive and combine a 2 frame nuc to a colony I made q- (by choice) last week during an a/s.Might check 2apideas if queen is laying then I'm going to my real paying job
This is my first full year and I didn't do a beginners course but I can read,listen and hear

 

[irishguy]

Called the guy out who I got the bees off and he confirmed my fears I had about these hives. One is ready to swarm and the other is queenless however there was still some young larvae so suggests the queen hasn't left the hive that long ago. He searched these frames twice and couldn't locate her or any eggs.

In the strongest hive that was about to swarm, we moved it a few meters away, lifted one frame out along with the queen and and put it into the new hive full of frames/foundation back in same location where the oringal hive was.

Im kicking myself now for giving a free hive away last week because now I need it to split the weaker hive. What the guy helping me suggested is (thats if I can get the hive back early tommorw) that I try and do the same thing as I did with the other hive. Infact, he suggested a few things but looking back, I forget most of them.

Can anyone suggest what I should do now with the queenless hive.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If this colony has swarmed there should be queen cells.....
I ask again....are there any?
If there are you must reduce them to one open one with a larva inside and mark the frame.
Have another look just before your new queen emerges to make sure all OK then leave alone for three weeks.

In the strongest hive that was about to swarm, we moved it a few meters away, lifted one frame out along with the queen and and put it into the new hive full of frames/foundation back in same location where the oringal hive was.


Then what?
Just to make sure you understand what you are in fact trying to achieve....not being patronising.

 

[irishguy]

If this colony has swarmed there should be queen cells.....
I ask again....are there any?
If there are you must reduce them to one open one with a larva inside and mark the frame.
Have another look just before your new queen emerges to make sure all OK then leave alone for three weeks.

In the strongest hive that was about to swarm, we moved it a few meters away, lifted one frame out along with the queen and and put it into the new hive full of frames/foundation back in same location where the oringal hive was.


Then what?
Just to make sure you understand what you are in fact trying to achieve....not being patronising.

He shook the hive abit so some bees would return back to the original location with new hive. Forgot to mention, put the super that was on original hive onto the new hive and put a super on top of the queenless hive.



Will I Split the queenless hive or just leave it in same location

 

[newportbuzz]

hi all.
Im the guy who supplied the nucs. today i looked through the two hives. both are coming along well and both are very strong for the amount of boxes given to them (single brood each one with a super).
one swarmed 3-4 days ago at a guess. this is based on lack of queen eggs or any larvae younger than 4 days old. ie nothing i would use for a graft.
the other hive is preparing to swarm the queen and one frame of brood have been removed and given the original site and the one super. (no queen cells on frame.)

the remaining hive has been moved to another stand in the apiary and the flying bees should leave it tomoro and the next day. the queen cells havnt been culled down to one.

for the hive that has already swarmed i have suggested either of three solutions.
either preform an AS using a queen cell as the queen or take a nuc from it or reduce down to one queen cell.

both queens are last autums queens and were marked and clipped. had a look in the grass for the swarmed queen but no sign.