I think i have a queen less colony

[beepig]

I inspected my angry colony yesterday with some trepidation, i could not see any new eggs brood is reducing. Therefore possibly without a queen.
1. It has been suggested that i might take a frame of eggs from neighbouring colony and replacing with queenless colony, thus inducing them to turn or encourage bees to create new queen.
2. Thoughts on this scenario would be appreciated please.
3. I would have to go in later today to carry out.

SEcondly
My two queen cells have hatched and one killed by first queen on emergence as dead in cell. I have been advised to now leave alone for three weeks to allow queen to mate and begin layiing.
1. Any other opinions on this

 

[Tom Bick]

A test frame is good if you think your hive is Q - queen cells on the test frame would confirm Q - and no queen cells will possibly confirm the hive has a queen of sorts.

Witch hive has the two queen cells? If it's your suspected Q - hive then you probably have a queen and she needs time to mate and come into lay.

 

[oliver90owner]

It is merely a test frame, not a good queen rearing method.

Here is what I wrote justvearlier this am on another thread:

Even with the correct sized slots, a queen can get through by virtue (or rather not) of her size. Not many will be unlucky and get trapped, however. The answer is to never even countenance small scrubby queens. It is surprising it doesn't happen more often, what with so many advocating raising of queens by emergency cells in weak colonies. All three compound to make poor queens, in one way or another, a regular possibility

 

[Arfermo]

It is merely a test frame, not a good queen rearing method.

Here is what I wrote justvearlier this am on another thread:

Even with the correct sized slots, a queen can get through by virtue (or rather not) of her size. Not many will be unlucky and get trapped, however. The answer is to never even countenance small scrubby queens. It is surprising it doesn't happen more often, what with so many advocating raising of queens by emergency cells in weak colonies. All three compound to make poor queens, in one way or another, a regular possibility

Your response is unnecessarily emphatic. Not all emergency queens are necessarily midgets and some can be very productive indeed. It is possible to pick the largest of the QCs and tear down all but one of the rest and it might well result in as good a queen as any other method. At least it would render the colony viable until such time as buying in or cadging a better queen.

 

[Skyhook]

Your response is unnecessarily emphatic. Not all emergency queens are necessarily midgets and some can be very productive indeed. It is possible to pick the largest of the QCs and tear down all but one of the rest and it might well result in as good a queen as any other method. At least it would render the colony viable until such time as buying in or cadging a better queen.

 

[oliver90owner]

Not overly emphatic. This is actually wot I rote, if you can reed propperly.

The answer is to never even countenance small scrubby queens

You are likely one to advocate 'walk away' splits. Little wonder, small scrubby queens, when small colonies are left to raise the first queen that emerges - probably developed from a larva rather than an egg.

You talk in 'might well' terms. I prefer to keep it simple s and get it right first time. Rendering the colony viable can be done more than 'at least' if done properly the first time. After that it just gets more difficult, especially for a new beek, working on his own.

My thoughts on the scenario are mine and I would rather get a full sized queen from a supercedure cell from another colony. Not so likely to be superceded later, for a start. Get it?

Just telling new beeks to 'stick in a frame with eggs' with little or no explanation is about as useful to them as a choclate teapot. Tom suggested, quite rightly, to insert a test frame. He did not suggest raising a queen from an emergency cell by what may be a decidedly weak colony.

Sometimes one has to resort to temporary patching. If they are your own bees, go ahead. Others deserve better solutions to choose from. And better advice, too.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thinking about this if the emergency queen cell is a good one and the bees select a newly hatched egg then no reason it won't produce a good queen. The amount of bees required to raise a good cell is an important factor as with cell rearing colonies and you could say they are raising emergency queen cells.

 

[enrico]

Here is how I would do it.
I would select a frame with eggs, I would find a nice patch of eggs in centre of frame, I would scrape of with my hive tool a four centimetre patch down to the foundation immediately below cells containing eggs. This is where good queens will be made. Checking the frame a few days later you leave one or two nice queen cells with larvae and royal jelly and that is how I get nice queens from a frame of eggs. The queen cells hang down, they are not bent, they are made from fresh eggs, I know exactly where on the frame they will be and it rarely fails.
E

 

[Tom Bick]

I tried that once enrico and the bees ignored them and built queen cells on a different part of the frame. It's a good tip and perhaps worth a 2nd go

 

[itma]

I inspected my angry colony yesterday with some trepidation, i could not see any new eggs brood is reducing. Therefore possibly without a queen.
1. It has been suggested that i might take a frame of eggs from neighbouring colony and replacing with queenless colony, thus inducing them to turn or encourage bees to create new queen.
2. Thoughts on this scenario would be appreciated please.
…

Using such a "test frame" is the standard way of testing for Queenlessness.

BUT (1)
It isn't an ideal means of Q rearing (and usually any QCs created aren't allowed by the beekeeper to develop to emergence.) The essential thing is that the evidence of the bees response of building QCs confirms queenlessness.
BUT (2)
If there is still open brood in the hive, they have the potential to produce emergency cells …
BUT (3)
… as it is actually open brood (not eggs) that acts as the basis for an emergency QC. The egg can't eat Royal Jelly! (And on test frames, bees have been known to eat eggs from other colonies.) Young larvae, (tiny open brood) are ideal for a test frame.
BUT (4)
If your other colony has been without a laying queen for over a week (now with emerged QCs), you won't have any tiny open brood, far less eggs, in there to use for a test frame …

SEcondly
My two queen cells have hatched and one killed by first queen on emergence as dead in cell. I have been advised to now leave alone for three weeks to allow queen to mate and begin layiing.
1. Any other opinions on this

You should have started the "leave alone" period before (not after) the new virgin queen emerged from her QC.

 

[beepig]

Thanks again to all. Duely noted.
1. On the emerged queen, i can only hope i have not done any damage by inspecting. Leave alone i will
2. I hope there will be enough sunshine today to try a frame of eggs. Gotta be worth a go

 

[beeno]

Hi beepig,
Two queen cells. First one out kills the queen still in queen cell - text book! I am interested to know why you think this happened? That is, why did the bees not throw a cast swarm?
Emergency Queens are frowned upon by some in the beekeeping fraternity. However, they can sometimes help the beek out of a hole and be replaced at a later date. For example, a so called 'scrub queen' (she is tiny and size apparently does matter to a queen) was the best layer in our association apiary a couple of weeks ago. It will be interesting to see how she develops, but she is inconvenient as she goes through the QE. She was a late season replacement and she took the colony through winter so she did a job. However, we are running ahead of ourselves here as you are still at the test frame stage. Good luck.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi beepig,
Two queen cells. First one out kills the queen still in queen cell - text book! I am interested to know why you think this happened? That is, why did the bees not throw a cast swarm?

A) because they weren't in swarming mode
B) you need two queens for a cast swarm (three for a colt and so on) - one to stay and one to go and a dead queen can't fly (also, again see A)

Hi beepig,
I am interested to know why you think this happened?

Because that's what bees do?

 

[beeno]

Hi Jenkins,
A) The colony was in swarm mode as they built two queen cells (maybe more ask beepig).
B) There were two queens, but first one out killed the one that had not emerged. This often does not happen and that's why most people on the forum advise not to leave two queen cells.
There is a reason for everything it is just a question of figuring out what it is!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No mention of swarming - just Q- colony, test frames and 2 QC's.
Left three hives with 2 QC's last year - not one threw a cast.

 

[BeeJayBee]

1. On the emerged queen, i can only hope i have not done any damage by inspecting. Leave alone i will

You can only know for sure that a queen has emerged from her cell, or if the larva has died, if you look. Don't beat yourself up about it.

A young queen needs a few days to build up her strength before taking an orientation flight or two, and then take mating flight(s). She will probably start laying eggs within a week or so of successful mating.

If you haven't already done so, download a copy of "At the hive entrance" which will offer clues as to what's happening in the hive - but bees will always collect pollen and will always collect nectar, it's where they put it on the frames that tells you there's an active queen or not.

2. I hope there will be enough sunshine today to try a frame of eggs. Gotta be worth a go

You can, if you want, let them raise a queen from a 'test frame'. At worst if will give them a queen that they can later supersede.

 

[oliver90owner]

not one threw a cast

Agreed, JBM, the word 'often' is an exaggeration. There is a risk, yes, but there are other factors in play, other than just one extra queen cell.

Padgen A/S reduces the risk and his method is good, but it is by no means certain to get a cast, otherwise - and one cast may not be the end of the world as we know it! The real downer is the case where multiple casts occur.

For a beginner, who maybe does not realise how fragile a freshly capped cell can be, leaving two is often a better path to follow. One queen is always better than no queen for them.

RAB