Horsley or Basterfield for artificial swarms?

[Summerslease]

Because I have limited space in my home apiary I am experimenting with two types of vertical artificial swarm this year.

One uses a board devised by Ken Basterfield and a technique described in Bee Craft in April 2012. He splits the brood in two and leaves half with the queen which is deprived of the flying bees.

The other uses a Horsley board and is a vertical Pagden AS. The queen keeps the flying bees but loses the brood.

Does anyone have experience of using both these methods to artificially swarm and have views on their ease of use and effect on honey yield?

 

[YorkshireBees]

I personally use a modified demaree method similar to the Horsley method, whereby all the existing brood is removed from the lower box leaving the queen and flying bees on drawn comb.

The advantage, I believe, is that it mimics the affect of swarming ie the queen and flying bees start the brood process from scratch and therefore no swarm instinct is carried forward. When I first tried it I transferred the frame of brood that the queen was on into the new box and found that in some cases they still built swarm cells.

In terms of effects on honey yield the method I use seems to enable a very large colony to be built up and therefore it boosts honey yield (imho).

Key things I have found are timing of the manipulation and providing plenty of super space when a heavy flow is present!

I have attached a pic of one of my colonies that is currently demaree'd. It has 4 supers, 3 of which are full and the 4th is filling fast! (Note OSR is in full bloom near by)

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I personally use a modified demaree method similar to the Horsley method, whereby all the existing brood is removed from the lower box leaving the queen and flying bees on drawn comb.

The advantage, I believe, is that it mimics the affect of swarming ie the queen and flying bees start the brood process from scratch and therefore no swarm instinct is carried forward. When I first tried it I transferred the frame of brood that the queen was on into the new box and found that in some cases they still built swarm cells.

In terms of effects on honey yield the method I use seems to enable a very large colony to be built up and therefore it boosts honey yield (imho).

Key things I have found are timing of the manipulation and providing plenty of super space when a heavy flow is present!

I have attached a pic of one of my colonies that is currently demaree'd. It has 4 supers, 3 of which are full and the 4th is filling fast! (Note OSR is in full bloom near by)

I've been investigating the Demaree method but having seen your photograph, I got to thinking about the height of the finished structure. My stand is 460mm high, the base is 75mm, each brood box is 310mm (14x12!) and each Super is 150mm plus there's 10mm for the QX and 100mm of insulation on the top so with two Supers the theoretical height is 1.565m, which I reckon is nose high!

Have you found the height to be a problem? Has anybody done a Demaree on a 14x12? My bees have half drawn their first Super so how many more should I put on and is the fact that I only have foundation for the additional Brood box a problem - as you say it's what they'd expect if they were to swarm.

At what point does the second QX go under the top BB if you want to raise another colony (split)?

CVB

 

[YorkshireBees]

I've been investigating the Demaree method but having seen your photograph, I got to thinking about the height of the finished structure. My stand is 460mm high, the base is 75mm, each brood box is 310mm (14x12!) and each Super is 150mm plus there's 10mm for the QX and 100mm of insulation on the top so with two Supers the theoretical height is 1.565m, which I reckon is nose high!

Have you found the height to be a problem? Has anybody done a Demaree on a 14x12? My bees have half drawn their first Super so how many more should I put on and is the fact that I only have foundation for the additional Brood box a problem - as you say it's what they'd expect if they were to swarm.

At what point does the second QX go under the top BB if you want to raise another colony (split)?

CVB

Not sure I would attempt it with 14x12. Std. national can be heavy enough when full to lift to the right height!

As the method generally means a lot more bees in the hive, if there is a half decent flow on, then you have to give them plenty of super space as they can / will fill it quickly!

In terms of only having foundation for the new brood box, that can potentially be a problem as sometimes they will swarm.
I would be tempted to see if any of the frames in the original BB have just stores and move those to the new box so at least they can move the stores and have space for the queen to lay.

I use a home made demaree board between the supers and the top box. It gives them a top entrance and prevents drones going down into the supers.

In terms of raising another colony I take frames of brood + QC from the top box and make nucs.

 

[Summerslease]

Thanks for your help Yorkshirebees. Mine are on 14x12 so with 2 broods and three supers I need some steps to move them safely. On the other hand I only have space for 3 hives horizontally, so it's up the steps I go.

Dave Cushman recommends a QE below the top box and above the supers. Does your board with a top opening incorporate a QE which as I see it allows free movement of the workers through the hive?

About the stand CVB./ I cut mine down to make the overall height lower. I'm on hardstanding though with no grass to cover the entrance. That too has a drawback as I have to bend more when there's only one brood box.

 

[YorkshireBees]

Thanks for your help Yorkshirebees. Mine are on 14x12 so with 2 broods and three supers I need some steps to move them safely. On the other hand I only have space for 3 hives horizontally, so it's up the steps I go.

Dave Cushman recommends a QE below the top box and above the supers. Does your board with a top opening incorporate a QE which as I see it allows free movement of the workers through the hive?

About the stand CVB./ I cut mine down to make the overall height lower. I'm on hardstanding though with no grass to cover the entrance. That too has a drawback as I have to bend more when there's only one brood box.

My home made board is a normal feeder / clearer board (the type with 2 porter bee escape holes) which I modify by cutting a side entrance and cover the 2 holes with cut down Queen excluder.

I also make my own hive stands and after making some higher to make it easier on my back to inspect the lower BB I now make them lower again as I realise the tradeoff when the hives become towers!

 

[Nige.Coll]

I've tried horsley board method.
The only down side i have found with the horsley board is the rear entrance .
I have hives close together and the rear entrance means when inspecting the other hives you cannot get out of the flight path.

edit
I carry an old beer crate . The structure gets a little high and heavy boxes on top.

 

[YorkshireBees]

I've tried horsley board method.
The only down side i have found with the horsley board is the rear entrance .
I have hives close together and the rear entrance means when inspecting the other hives you cannot get out of the flight path.

edit
I carry an old beer crate . The structure gets a little high and heavy boxes on top.

Great idea with the beer crate.

In terms of the top (extra) entrance, I rotate the board each inspection so that flying bees are bled from the top box and hopefully will find the original hive entrance whilst circling down to find the missing entrance.