Hive entrance

[Zante]

Is there a case for having the hive entrance between the brood box and the supers?

The way I see it is that bees would have to travel less through the hive to get to the supers and deposit the nectar, but I'd like to hear what people with actual experience have to say about it.

Also, if one were to do this, would you put the entrance above or below the queen excluder?
If the entrance was to be placed above the queen excluder the queen wouldn't be able to get out and therefore swarm, not sure how this would be good though, because forcing the queen to stay in the box doesn't remove the swarming triggers. Also any virgin queens wouldn't be able to fly, but I suppose that if you requeen regularly that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[B+.]

If the entrance was to be placed above the queen excluder the queen wouldn't be able to get out and therefore swarm, not sure how this would be good though, because forcing the queen to stay in the box doesn't remove the swarming triggers. Also any virgin queens wouldn't be able to fly, but I suppose that if you requeen regularly that shouldn't be a problem.

You seem to be describing something very similar to the queen-trap system (Paradise Honey https://youtu.be/48Tu-mAESSc). You also need to think of the drones which would be attracted to the light but unable to leave the hive.

 

[enrico]

Yep, drones are your problem!
E

 

[Plenty of honey]

Ive read lots on this, and many different beekeepers say that its good to have a second entrance, above the brood box.
The main benefit is really two reasons.
Firstly, in a really good flow, forager bees will be a be able to leave the hive quicker, through alternative exits and i am sure this has been proven to be correct. but, bees still have to pass their nectar to a receiver bee, and its the receiver bee that will then move the nectar/ pollen to its appropriate place in the hive.
Secondly, well take a look at Michael Plamers Nuc boxes. (His twin colonie nucs)
Where he is, they have snow, i mean real snow, so a second exit, higher up the hive is a really good idea. Without it, they would suffocate. with a second entrance theres always a chimney of air that passes up and out, effectively ventilating the colonie. you can see here, their going from one entrance t the other!!
https://youtu.be/Umorc1TmCPM

Some beekeepers use a second , upper entrance when their making splits. They just stick a cover board between the two brood boxes, (or a super and brood box, if their not using a queen excluder.) and the queen less part makes a new colonie, using the upper or lower entrance. so effectively you have two colonies, using two different entrances.

If you dont use an upper entrance or hole, you can always stick a cork in the hole, until a really strong flow starts.

 

[B+.]

in a really good flow, forager bees will be a be able to leave the hive quicker, through alternative exits and i am sure this has been proven to be correct. but, bees still have to pass their nectar to a receiver bee, and its the receiver bee that will then move the nectar/ pollen to its appropriate place in the hive.
.

I think I would be more concerned about pollen being stored in the supers rather than in the brood area.
Incidentally, foragers don't transfer pollen to another bee to pack into cells - only fresh nectar. They also tend to use the pollen quite quickly so don't move it

 

[Plenty of honey]

I think I would be more concerned about pollen being stored in the supers rather than in the brood area.
Incidentally, foragers don't transfer pollen to another bee to pack into cells - only fresh nectar. They also tend to use the pollen quite quickly so don't move it

yes, quite correct B +

 

[Goran]

We at my place use regularly in season framed qe with entrance, also normal entrance at bottom board.

 

[Poly Hive]

I strongly suspect that the "lots of" people who practice the 2nd entrance are not in the UK.

PH

 

[B+.]

We at my place use regularly in season framed qe with entrance, also normal entrance at bottom board.

Do you get a lot of pollen in the upper box Goran? I notice that there is a lower entrance too so, clearly, the queen and drones aren't sealed in.

 

[user 6228]

Secondly, well take a look at Michael Plamers Nuc boxes. (His twin colonie nucs)
Where he is, they have snow, i mean real snow, so a second exit, higher up the hive is a really good idea. Without it, they would suffocate. with a second entrance theres always a chimney of air that passes up and out, effectively ventilating the colonie. you can see here, their going from one entrance t the other!!
https://youtu.be/Umorc1TmCPM

Bees select where available nest high up. like 5m. So its a man made issue of not elevating the hive above the snow. Being above the snow is also added protection from mice.

A chiminey ventilation? Stacked ventilation is the building term. A very good way of cooling a building

 

[Zante]

You seem to be describing something very similar to the queen-trap system (Paradise Honey https://youtu.be/48Tu-mAESSc). You also need to think of the drones which would be attracted to the light but unable to leave the hive.

Ah, yes, I didn't think of the drones. So in any case the queen excluder would have to go above the entrance for someone doing this.

I think I would be more concerned about pollen being stored in the supers rather than in the brood area.
Incidentally, foragers don't transfer pollen to another bee to pack into cells - only fresh nectar. They also tend to use the pollen quite quickly so don't move it

Ok, I understand commercially it could be an issue, but for self production is having pollen in the supers a problem? For example, would it make the honey spoil once extracted and bottled?

Also, wouldn't the pollen be stored closer to the brood? I'd think that the brood would be the major consumer of pollen and they'd store it closer to the brood if possible.

Last thing: if we consider a hive with a double entrance, wouldn't the pollen in the supers be consumed and not replaced once the upper entrance is closed after the main honey flow ceases?

Bees select where available nest high up. like 5m. So its a man made issue of not elevating the hive above the snow. Being above the snow is also added protection from mice.

A chiminey ventilation? Stacked ventilation is the building term. A very good way of cooling a building

True, but if you have a mesh floor that would be the main source of ventilation from the bottom anyway, wouldn't it?

 

[user 6228]

Ah, yes, I didn't think of the drones. So in any case the queen excluder would have to go above the entrance for someone doing this.


True, but if you have a mesh floor that would be the main source of ventilation from the bottom anyway, wouldn't it?

I would not confirm such a simple conclusion from such a complex fluid mechanics system.

I will confirm that if the bees manage to retain any heat in the enclosure a bottom and a top vent will lose more of it than the bottom vent alone.

 

[Plenty of honey]

True, but if you have a mesh floor that would be the main source of ventilation from the bottom anyway, wouldn't it?

i was saying saying that if their was no air movement through the base, because the entrance is blocked with snow, or open mesh floor is the same, then the upper hole does suffice and is necessary.

 

[Zante]

i was saying saying that if their was no air movement through the base, because the entrance is blocked with snow, or open mesh floor is the same, then the upper hole does suffice and is necessary.

Ah, yes, I agree, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I would not confirm such a simple conclusion from such a complex fluid mechanics system.

I will confirm that if the bees manage to retain any heat in the enclosure a bottom and a top vent will lose more of it than the bottom vent alone.

Aren't hives vented at the roof anyway?
At least the few nationals I've seen...

 

[Plenty of honey]

Ah, yes, I agree, sorry for the misunderstanding.



Aren't hives vented at the roof anyway?
At least the few nationals I've seen...

Its probably the way i worded it, i admit i was typing, with my kids jumping around and my daughter on the WII with her french friends!! recipe for bad typing.

I cant speak about nationals, but the ones i have seen dont have upper ventilation, (when the hive in all closed up except with the entrance open)
My dadants certainly dont. However on all my hives, i use and keep in place a wooded frame cover/ feeder. This allows a tiny bit of upper ventilation, but its a big debate, when the bottom open mesh floor, (that i have on all mine) does the job of ventilation.

If your at all worried, you can use a highly technical device called "matchsticks" under the top cover, but this is also the same as magic stones , lots of people believe in them, say no more, and dont go there, please!! I mustn't be talking about such acts of stupidity in the beginners section. I will be banned!!

 

[user 6228]

Ah, yes, I agree, sorry for the misunderstanding.



Aren't hives vented at the roof anyway?
At least the few nationals I've seen...

not necessarily - there are vents on wooden hives to vent the space between the crown board and the outside. This is where it gets contraversial.

If you wish to adhere to the 1941 advice you would have a hole in the crown board covered in perforated zinc which the bees would then block with propolis.

Later advice would omit the zinc and put matchsticks between the crown board and the brood box.

The 1941 and later advice seem to show a lack of understanding of heat flow and condensation which appears not to be shared by the honeybees.

read this and its references

D. Mitchell (2015) Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor Int.Jnl. Biometeorology

 

[Zante]

not necessarily - there are vents on wooden hives to vent the space between the crown board and the outside. This is where it gets contraversial.

If you wish to adhere to the 1941 advice you would have a hole in the crown board covered in perforated zinc which the bees would then block with propolis.

Later advice would omit the zinc and put matchsticks between the crown board and the brood box.

The 1941 and later advice seem to show a lack of understanding of heat flow and condensation which appears not to be shared by the honeybees.

read this and its references

D. Mitchell (2015) Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor Int.Jnl. Biometeorology

Thank you, I'll have a look.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Use top entrances on a percentage of hives during the spring/summer, mainly as a part of the demareeing rotation, to allow drones to fly, but the foragers make good use of them as well, especially during a heavy flow, and helps cut congestion in the lower box.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Ah, yes, I agree, sorry for the misunderstanding.



Aren't hives vented at the roof anyway?
At least the few nationals I've seen...

I suspect you have seen national boxes with feeder boards rather than true crownboards. There are no open holes in my crownboards.
The presence of any hole in the top of the hive simply equates to leaving the loft hatch open in a house and uncontrolled heat losses. The bees are perfectly capable of moving air around the hive so the omf at the bottom and sealed top of the chamber is all that is required.
Some keepers fit mesh over feed holes and the bees propolise the mesh closed

 

[Jazzygem]

2 entrances

Forgive me asking and mentioning this but being a new bee I'm learning so asking questions...

Ive read and seen on videos that when you have 2 entrances the bees foraging for nectar use the upper entrance and the bees carrying pollen for the brood use the lower entrance (if the brood is lower) and the house bees would use the lower entrance for house cleaning etc. When the temps fall the bees seal up the upper entrance keeping the hive 'warmer'.

would that make sense or not?