Help Queen rearing

[Brian Bush]

I downloaded and printed an excellent pdf file about queen rearing by a Dutch scholar. This was a couple of years ago and I am unable to locate it. I also cannot remember the authors name. Internet searches are adding to my confusion
Can anyone help me, please? My memory seems to be going the same way as my hair!!!!

 

[Finman]

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And what was your problem what you want to solve?
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[alldigging]

Was it Khalil Hamdan Raising Honey bee queens?

http://www.scstatebeekeepers.org/Resources/Documents/Raising_Honey_Bee_Queens_5-8-2014.pdf

 

[Brian Bush]

Was it Khalil Hamdan Raising Honey bee queens?

http://www.scstatebeekeepers.org/Resources/Documents/Raising_Honey_Bee_Queens_5-8-2014.pdf

Well done alldigging. That just the guy. I recommended this to a colleague this morning and then had a mental blank. I then panicked when I could not find my own tatty copy I printed out some time ago.
Thank you so much.
Finman I assume the post from you is an offer to help. I may have to take you up on that later this year. Thanks.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

An excellent primer!


Dusty

 

[Finman]

Was it Khalil Hamdan Raising Honey bee queens?

http://www.scstatebeekeepers.org/Resources/Documents/Raising_Honey_Bee_Queens_5-8-2014.pdf

At least here is clear mistake

My figures
Queen birth 16
Mating flight 20
Start egg laying 23

Mating flight is at age of 7 days. Not at 4 days. Even swarm queen needs 5 days, bevause its stays inside the queen cells about 2 days and is ready to fly when it emerge.

Then the queen needs 1-3 days to mate.

birth 16
mating flights 23-26
laying 26 --->

Practically, what I have seen in my queens, if weathers are perfect, I can wait eggs after 10 days from emerging.

I have read that queen can be inseminated at the age of 4 days.
.
.

 

[Finman]

Was it Khalil Hamdan Raising Honey bee queens?

http://www.scstatebeekeepers.org/Resources/Documents/Raising_Honey_Bee_Queens_5-8-2014.pdf

At least here is clear mistake

Queen birth 16
Mating flight 20
Start egg laying 23

Mating flight is at age of 7 days. Not at 4 days. Even swarm queen needs 5 days, bevause its stays inside the queen cells about 2 days and is ready to fly when it emerge.

Then the queen needs 1-3 days to mate.

birth 16
mating flights 23-26
laying 26....

Practically, what I have seen in my queens, if weathers are perfect, I can wait eggs after 10 days from emerging.
.

It is good to know, that when I have grafted queen cells on Sunday, first queens emerge on Thursday evening 12 days later.

If rearing box is too cold, emerging can be delayed 3 days, but perhaps queens are not normally developed then.
.

 

[B+.]

I have read that queen can be inseminated at the age of 4 days.
.
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Do you have a reference for this Finman? I was taught to wait 6 days (http://coloss.org/beebook/I/instrumental-insemination/4/3)

 

[Finman]

Do you have a reference for this Finman? I was taught to wait 6 days

I have never inseminated. I do not know where I read it. I read so much.

People may write clear mistakes. I do not know.


Here is one research from Poland.

5, 7 and 10 days old queen were inseminated.
http://www.jas.org.pl/pdf/177.pdf

10 days old queens got best results in insemination.

25% out of 5 days old inseminated queens died.

-

 

[B+.]

25% out of 5 days old inseminated queens died.

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Yes. That is what I was taught. The queens aren't sexually mature until at least 6 days after emergence. The reference I gave above says the optimum age is 5-14 days

 

[Finman]

Yes. That is what I was taught. The queens aren't sexually mature until at least 6 days after emergence. The reference I gave above says the optimum age is 5-14 days

Poland is very advanced in beekeeping. 40 years one guy came to Finland and started here insemination. Now he is beekeeping professor in Poland.
.

 

[oliver90owner]

Probably same as, or inferred from his above posts queen emeges at 16 days, mating at 20 days?

Some, well one, on the forum reckon there will be capped brood in less than three weeks after the queen cell is sealed. Come to think, that poster has been very quiet of late? Maybe advising new beeks in the art of making cuckoos?

 

[Finman]

.
Here we have a well known queen breeder's article about

Comparison studies of instrumentally inseminated
and naturally mated honey bee queens and factors affecting
their performance

Susan W. Cobey 2007
Ohio State University, Department of Entomology, Columbus,

Really much interesting knowledge to ordinary beekeeper.


https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00892280/document

.

 

[alldigging]

.
Here we have a well known queen breeder's article about

Comparison studies of instrumentally inseminated
and naturally mated honey bee queens and factors affecting
their performance

Susan W. Cobey 2007
Ohio State University, Department of Entomology, Columbus,

Really much interesting knowledge to ordinary beekeeper.


https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00892280/document

.

There's some youtube videos of her doing II.

 

[Brian Bush]

At least here is clear mistake

Queen birth 16
Mating flight 20
Start egg laying 23

Mating flight is at age of 7 days. Not at 4 days. Even swarm queen needs 5 days, bevause its stays inside the queen cells about 2 days and is ready to fly when it emerge.

Then the queen needs 1-3 days to mate.

birth 16
mating flights 23-26
laying 26....
Practically, what I have seen in my queens, if weathers are perfect, I can wait eggs after 10 days from emerging.
.

It is good to know, that when I have grafted queen cells on Sunday, first queens emerge on Thursday evening 12 days later.

If rearing box is too cold, emerging can be delayed 3 days, but perhaps queens are not normally developed then.
.

I am sorry Finman but I do not understand where you think the mistake is. The table in Hamdan's paper agrees with your figures. He says the queen mates from day 22 onwards and lays from day 27 onwards.
We all know some bees take longer before they emerge by a day, and can be later or earlier on mating flights depending on the weather. I am sure that most of us have thought a mating has been unsuccessful when we have waited for 4 weeks from emergence to egg laying. The timings are not always certain as the weather and subspecies of the bee can affect timing by a day or so.
Please correct me if I am wrong but this is becoming confusing. The queen is sexually mature 6 days after emergence,( Koeniger). That means she can go on mating flights from day 22 onwards. Yates agrees 5 to 6 days after emergence. I cannot believe anyone would attempt Instrumental Insemination on a queen under 6 days from emergence. I have know read articles, and watched You Tube videos and they have all said after 6 days. Some say give her a dose of C)2 the day before II, ie day5 and some say the day after.

 

[Brian Bush]

I apologise to you all, especially Finman. I see in Hamdans paper the table on page 2 gives the shortened times for sexual maturity and laying that Finman says are wrong. I agree. If you go to page 13 of the document he presents the Glen Apiaries table that agrees with Finman et all.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The queen is sexually mature 6 days after emergence,( Koeniger). That means she can go on mating flights from day 22 onwards.

During 2014 at one time several sister queens were out on mating flights on the fourth day from emerging, so day 20.

 

[Finman]

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I have reared queen only 50 years. How can I know anything.
And when you tell about examples, please tell, what majority does. Not records or exceptions.

You may imagine what ever there. But I do not expect that my queens start to mate under 7 days old. I can see it, when I open the hive, and look
- when the virgin has mating sign in its abdomen, during how many days.
- when the abdomen starts to swell
- When there are eggs in cells.


According researches queens need 1-3 days to do all matings. And it there is a rainy days in the middle of mating, mating may take 4 days.

Queens do orienting flight very early. I can see it when I drop the virgin on air and it flyes like arrow into its entrance.

I do not expect that queens start to mate under 10 days old.

I do not expect that they make mating fligts under tempareture 20C. I know that they do even in 18C, but my beekeeping is not based on good hopes. I am not hunting records, except in honey yield.

 

[Poly Hive]

I once accidentally forgot to open the slide on a mini nuc and so the queen was trapped for 15 days....I was away working offshore.

She immediately circled to orientate then shot off to....

Three days later eggs.

I remind you bees cannot read timetables nor do they:

Do anything invariably.

Oh and the so called good frame in the link well err.... I profoundly hope most of us have seen far better.

PH