Happily queenless

[Angularity]

I have a hive that seems determined to live without a (laying) queen. Over the course of the last four weeks we have not seen eggs or queen. We've put in two frames of eggs from other hives, a week apart, with no effort on their part to generate queen cells. Then we put in a queen, who came out of the cage well enough but is now missing too, presumed dead. No eggs still.

I can only assume that there is a non-laying queen somewhere in the hive, but we can't find her, despite trying all the usual tricks. What should we do? If they're confirmed republicans then there is no point putting in another queen, or uniting them with a queen-right colony. Should I just shake them out? I suppose I could leave them over winter and see what happens, but I am a bit short of space, so I'd like to use the hive for a colony with a future. Any suggestions?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a hive that seems determined to live without a (laying) queen. Over the course of the last four weeks we have not seen eggs or queen. We've put in two frames of eggs from other hives, a week apart, with no effort on their part to generate queen cells. Then we put in a queen, who came out of the cage well enough but is now missing too, presumed dead. No eggs still.

I can only assume that there is a non-laying queen somewhere in the hive, but we can't find her, despite trying all the usual tricks. What should we do? If they're confirmed republicans then there is no point putting in another queen, or uniting them with a queen-right colony. Should I just shake them out? I suppose I could leave them over winter and see what happens, but I am a bit short of space, so I'd like to use the hive for a colony with a future. Any suggestions?

Shake them out, a good few yards away, not in front of the other hives and preferably into a bush or long grass.

 

[enrico]

Tough call! Virgin, might be mated, might not! Might not have a virgin. Late in the year. I would leave them but I understand where you are coming from with shaking them! Good luck whatever you decide!

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Shaking them out might be best and the bees will strengthen the colonies that receive them.
I did this a few weeks ago for exactly the same scenario.It was a manic hour or so with bees everywhere, but by the morning all was well. I was relieved afterwards as the colony was a concern and wasps had penetrated the defences.

 

[Finman]

Have you tried to sieve the bees through an excluder?

 

[Antipodes]

Six weeks is sometimes needed.

 

[Chantereine105]

Hi All, My first post. I'm a fairly new beekeeper, this is my third year. Issues with swarming this year and I have two nucs left with bees in that, as for Angularity, don't seem to have any eggs/brood but they struggle on. I would like to tidy these small hives up for winter and give the bees in there the best chance. How does shaking them out work? If you do that far enough away from their hive (I can go no further than about 30 yards) do they not return home but eventually find their way into a closer hive? Do you remove their hive from the site so there is no where to go? I have two other good hives in my garden that would be available!

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Hi All, My first post. I'm a fairly new beekeeper, this is my third year. Issues with swarming this year and I have two nucs left with bees in that, as for Angularity, don't seem to have any eggs/brood but they struggle on. I would like to tidy these small hives up for winter and give the bees in there the best chance. How does shaking them out work? If you do that far enough away from their hive (I can go no further than about 30 yards) do they not return home but eventually find their way into a closer hive? Do you remove their hive from the site so there is no where to go? I have two other good hives in my garden that would be available!

You have enough space with 30 yards. You remove the hive shaken out to prevent return.
The advice given by the wise old sages on here are to shake into long grass or shrubbery and basically leave them to beg their way into the other hives. I have only done this once, it was manic for a while, but they sorted themselves out within an hour or so and the next morning, there was no sign that it had been done.
The very best of luck to you and welcome

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi All, My first post. I'm a fairly new beekeeper, this is my third year. Issues with swarming this year and I have two nucs left with bees in that, as for Angularity, don't seem to have any eggs/brood but they struggle on. I would like to tidy these small hives up for winter and give the bees in there the best chance. How does shaking them out work? If you do that far enough away from their hive (I can go no further than about 30 yards) do they not return home but eventually find their way into a closer hive? Do you remove their hive from the site so there is no where to go? I have two other good hives in my garden that would be available!

10 yards is enough.
Shake into the grass.

 

[Rowena]

This has got me a bit worried now, I was just about to unite what I presumed was a hopelessly queenless nuc with another that has a lovely large homegrown queen with a great nature which I don’t want to loose.

The queenless nuc was shaken out after being drone laying once and they went back into the nuc where now they seem to be quite content bringing in stores, but also have cleaned up a frame or so ready for laying which is not happening.

Might these trash my other queen if I unite?

 

[GuyNir]

Have you considered shaking them out?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The queenless nuc was shaken out after being drone laying once and they went back into the nuc where now they seem to be quite content bringing in stores, but also have cleaned up a frame or so ready for laying which is not happening.

And what were you hoping to achieve with that? you had a nuc of queenless laying workers before the shakeout so now you have a nuc full of queenless laying workers but with new fresh comb for them to lay in - unless you unite them sharpish
you would have been much better off just shaking them out and leaving them beg their way into other hives.

 

[Rowena]

Hi, no I don’t have a nuc of queenless laying workers, why would I keep that. I have a nuc of bees without a queen and was going to unite with a queen right nuc but one of the comments above indicated that the queenless hive may kill the queen in the queen right hive and I was concerned as to if this would potentially happen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi, no I don’t have a nuc of queenless laying workers, why would I keep that.

#
errm:

The queenless nuc was shaken out after being drone laying once and they went back into the nuc

So what do you think happened between them being shaken out and them going back to the nuc?

 

[GuyNir]

In any case, with old grumpy foragers, you’re better off shaking them (them having to beg their way into other hives), then uniting and running the risk.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

This has got me a bit worried now, I was just about to unite what I presumed was a hopelessly queenless nuc with another that has a lovely large homegrown queen with a great nature which I don’t want to loose.

The queenless nuc was shaken out after being drone laying once and they went back into the nuc where now they seem to be quite content bringing in stores, but also have cleaned up a frame or so ready for laying which is not happening.

Might these trash my other queen if I unite?

It would only be a problem if the queenless nuc actually had a dud queen in it. You need to be sure it’s queenless if you unite. If you can’t be sure, shake them out.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi, no I don’t have a nuc of queenless laying workers, why would I keep that. I have a nuc of bees without a queen and was going to unite with a queen right nuc but one of the comments above indicated that the queenless hive may kill the queen in the queen right hive and I was concerned as to if this would potentially happen.

But you do
You've already said you shook them out but what you didn't do was take their old home away so they just flew back. So they are the same colony, they just went for a ride then flew home

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Back to entry 5 in the room 101 of beekeeping myths and magic I think

 

[Clivewoodford]

A laying worker would be a nurse bee, she’s never been on an orientation flight so if you shook them out away from the hive site she would not be able to find her way back unless by chance.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A laying worker would be a nurse bee, she’s never been on an orientation flight so if you shook them out away from the hive site she would not be able to find her way back unless by chance.

Nonsense, nurse bees orientate early on in their lives - where do you think they defecate?
You are looking at a colony that has been hopelessly queenless for some time so all bees will be long past 'nurse bee' status anyway, notwithstanding that, colonies, even queenright ones always have workers of all ages that lay, it's just that due to being Q+ the workers police it and ensure the eggs are cleared.
And let's put another myth to bed as we're at it - laying workers don't magically turn into queens, the other workers don't think they are queens, and they are wholly capable of flying any distance
I honestly don't know where these fables come from