Drone Laying Queen?

[BMH]

I made up a nuc about 5 weeks ago with a virgin queen.

I thought she had mated because she was laying eggs but it turns out its drone brood.

I was going to squish her and replace but on closer inspection its actually a mix of drone and worker brood. Probably about 50/50.

My question is, will a unmated virgin begin laying drone brood, then get mated and begin laying worker brood?

The pattern is very poor regardless, but I am reluctant to let her go and is she is from a local BIBBA breeder and a close to native black AMM so keen to see how they compare to my other bees.

Pic below shows frame and queen:

[/url]2016-07-15_01-23-45 by laurence edwards, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]2016-07-15_01-24-03 by laurence edwards, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[sherwood]

Contact your supplier explain the situation and see whether he/she is willing to replace her

 

[BMH]

I have plenty of virgins that could replace her, and she was a 1 day old virgin that was given for free so cant really go back to him

 

[midnight sun]

I made up a nuc about 5 weeks ago with a virgin queen.

I thought she had mated because she was laying eggs but it turns out its drone brood.

I was going to squish her and replace but on closer inspection its actually a mix of drone and worker brood. Probably about 50/50.

My question is, will a unmated virgin begin laying drone brood, then get mated and begin laying worker brood?

The pattern is very poor regardless, but I am reluctant to let her go and is she is from a local BIBBA breeder and a close to native black AMM so keen to see how they compare to my other bees.

Pic below shows frame and queen:

[/url]2016-07-15_01-23-45 by laurence edwards, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]2016-07-15_01-24-03 by laurence edwards, on Flickr[/IMG]

From the look of the picture I have on my screen, there is sealed worker brood and a couple of drone. expect more drone cells with the look of the comb as there are drone sized cells and the queen will lay the appropriate egg in the cell she is provided with size wise.
The pattern isn't great but then she is a new Queen and I can't see in the cells on my screen so don't know if there are stores of any kind blocking her laying pattern or if she is down on experience at the moment. Coild be other things though.
Once she is laying ...thats it. She won't lay drone ,get mated and then start to lay worker to the best of my knowledge. If she could, I've never heard of it. Hope this is some use until someone else contradicts me!

Just got a better look at hte bottom picture. Looks like honey stores in the brood cells so she could just be laying whereever she can. Leave her till next inspection and see how she is doing but keep an eye on the stores so they don't fill the brood box up. Have you got supers on?

 

[Finman]

.
The Queen is very tiny. Its size is like worker. Even smaller. Miniatyr.

Do I see collapsed larvae. Like EFB. Some pupae do not have capping.

Multi-problem-hive.

I would not say that poor bug queen.

 

[BMH]

yes. she is tiny but she was even smaller when she was a virgin. she is native AMM whereas workers are Buckfast hence the more pronounced size difference.

no collapsed capping but some larvae aren't being capped correctly.

may be I should just squish her and give them a virgin. they had a frame of emerging brood last week so are healthy on numbers.

 

[BMH]

From the look of the picture I have on my screen, there is sealed worker brood and a couple of drone. expect more drone cells with the look of the comb as there are drone sized cells and the queen will lay the appropriate egg in the cell she is provided with size wise.
The pattern isn't great but then she is a new Queen and I can't see in the cells on my screen so don't know if there are stores of any kind blocking her laying pattern or if she is down on experience at the moment. Coild be other things though.
Once she is laying ...thats it. She won't lay drone ,get mated and then start to lay worker to the best of my knowledge. If she could, I've never heard of it. Hope this is some use until someone else contradicts me!

Just got a better look at hte bottom picture. Looks like honey stores in the brood cells so she could just be laying whereever she can. Leave her till next inspection and see how she is doing but keep an eye on the stores so they don't fill the brood box up. Have you got supers on?

Its a 6 frame nuc. Probably has 1.5 frames of stores, 1 frame of 'brood' (50/50 drone/worker) and then 4.5 frames of drawn comb that is completely empty.

She is laying eggs in a very scatter gun approach and it appears they arent tending to some as well.

Its very strange behaviour but im putting it down to poor mating.

Will give her another couple of weeks and can replace her with a mated queen from a kielier mini nuc.

 

[kighill]

Possibly a high varroa load if the bees are not tending the brood properly?

 

[Finman]

Possibly a high varroa load if the bees are not tending the brood properly?

I think the same. Uncapped pupae is sign of it.

 

[Finman]

may be I should just squish her and give them a virgin.

Do it. No reason to save that queenish.

 

[BMH]

Didnt even think of varroa.

Will give them a blast tomorrow and squish her then.

Glad ive got plenty of virgins at the moment! lots of queen failures and supersedures late in the year

 

[Eyeman]

Agree with Finman top pic shows misshaped and discoloured larvae. Make sure not EFB

 

[Finman]

.
Lots of dead brood. That is why the brood area is porous.

One reason may bee that the nuc is not properly occupied. YOu gove a brood frame and bees were not able to feed and keep warms those brood???


Them the nuc must be warm, No mesh floor. All frames must be occupied. Use dummy board, or add a frame of emerging brood.

When you make a nuc in same yard, most bees return to home.

But recent queen is zero value. In my scale it is -10 on 0-10 degree

You should buy a mated queen. Those virging things are unsure, when it starts to lay, and with whom it mates. New workers of virgin starts to emerge at the middle of August, ... perhaps
at the end.
.Not good strategy to make nuc. Time has been wasted with this queen enough.

.Do not mind about EFB. It clears out when a new queen has a 2 weeks old brood area.


Varroa
Formalic acid treatment would be good. It is best to do now when the colony is small.

But if I were you, I would abandon that brood frame. Combs are old and much dead brood. It need to be renewed before winter. At same time varroa will be eliminated. Harsh trick but it is best to the new queen.
.




.

 

[Finman]

.
If you use a virgin, it takes perhaps a week before it lays.
Before that give some frames of emerging brood. when the queen starts to lay, take off the rest of brood and give to some colony.

Then give oxalic trickling, thymol, what ever that the nuc starts on clean table.

That is worth to at least as a interesting case.

Bald pupae tells that varroa level may be severe in the nuc. And quite high on other hives too, from where you took the begin.

++++++

I have too much varroa now, that when yield is over, I make AS from hives and I put the queens lay on clean table. Too many mites to be seen in drone pupae.

.

 

[mbc]

I would squish that queen pronto and replace with a mated queen. Even a mated queen released tomorrow and immediately starting egg laying wouldn't augment colony numbers until the second week of August by which time wasp and other bee pressure us so much more, add another fortnight or so if a virgin is used and you're getting into late August and a likely doomed lot of bees.

 

[Eyeman]

I agree the pupae are affected so more like parasitic mite syndrome than EFB.

 

[Finman]

.


One possibility of porous brood area is, that because of bad weathers, nuc may have had short of pollen and bees have eaten open larvae off.

 

[BMH]

thanks for all the comments.

I think the best course of action is to squish the Queen and combine with another week nuc in the hope of getting a strong nuc to overwinter.

I will get rid of that frame of brood as well as its the only one that doesn't look too good.

 

[Finman]

I made up a nuc about 5 weeks ago with a virgin queen.

]

It may happen that they have killed your vigin and they have made their own emergency queen. The larva has been maximum old. That is why it is so small.

Normal hive never makes that size queens.

 

[BMH]

she has been marked from day one so it's the same queen.

and the size difference is due to AMM vs Buckfast. I was amazed athat how small the breeders bees were so I do think size comes into it. unless of course the reason she is so small is because she isn't properly mated.