Drone laying and queen cells

[bees knees]

I think we have a doomed colony but I am trying to piece together the events that may have led to this. Please let me know what you think has happened. Also, is it definitely doomed and either way, how would you advise we proceed??

We went on holiday for 2 1/2 weeks and came back last week. In retrospect, perhaps not the best time to go away - made worse by the fact that everything seems to have got going very early this year. Lessons have been learned... Anyway. Checked this hive a week ago whilst still a bit jet-lagged. No sign of Queen - no eggs. Not very many bees generally. Lots of drones. Lots of drone brood but spotty and over areas of previous worker brood. Uncapped brood looked healthy. Emerging bees seen (all drones I think). Did not see any Q cells. Some remaining fondant on top of crown board and found a single grub inside the clingfilm which was a bit weird. Didn't really get our thoughts together too well last week. Hoped the colony might just be a bit slow to get going. Wondered if there might not be enough bees to forrage and colony might be starving so put some sugar syrup on and left them until today.

Inspected again today. Bees perhaps a little tetchy (circling my head and bouncing off the veil a bit). Although quite a lot of workers coming and going, not a great deal of bees. Again, no Q or eggs seen. Only brood appears to be drone in a patchy fashion in the middle of frames on what was previously worker comb. Uncapped brood looks healthy. Emerging bees I think all drones. Colony v small. Prob 2 frames of stores max. Outside frames either side pretty much void of anything. What we noticed today however was 4 queen cells - small uncapped ones I think. 3 of these were together in the middle of a frame. Didn't manage to get a good look inside them. Had to speed things up as thunder and heavy rain started.

For background info, colony was a nuc from end of last June. Built up fine last year but never strong enough to put on super. Seemed fine going into winter. Treated for varroa end of season and oxalic in the winter. Saw the Q only once last year and she was unmarked.

So in summary, I think we have drone laying workers going by the pattern of drone brood. Unfortunately could not see any eggs to gain more info from this. Don't really know where the queen cells fit in. Is it possible they are emergency cells built around eggs from laying worker? Is it possible bees may have swarmed? Q cells looked neatly open rather than torn open and were all small and neat - none looked like fully formed Q cells but we are still v new to this so I have tried to describe what we have seen as my interpretations are not v experienced.

Any suggestions and advice very welcome. Sorry no photos.

BK

 

[melormynydd]

hi bees knees,
from the description u have drone laying queen or workers.
best thing to do is shake all the bees from the hive and frames on to the ground around 10 ft away from the hive. all the bees will fly home exept the drone laying queen/workers (as they are to heavy to fly), check for eggs 4 days later. if eggs are there do the same procedure again, then buy a queen and introduce.
or give them a frame of eggs from other hive after doing the shaking procedure and they will make own queens.
good luck

allso destroy the frames with drones in cells,(leave out of hive for a couple of days then place in solar extractor to get the wax) because as i have understood they will be inferior drones so no good to mate with your virgin queen if u decide on rearing your own queen.

 

[Poly Hive]

I agree.

Oh and to make you feel better it made no odds going on holiday, she was going to start drone laying regardless.

PH

 

[Midland Beek]

Some fondant still in the hive is perhaps indicitive of the 'new beekeeper wanting to do the best for his/her bees so is prone to overfeed them in a single National brood box' syndrome. Meaning ... your bees may have filled out your brood box and possibly swarmed a few feeks ago.

A single National brood box is too small for any bees that I have ever come across.

Your colony seems to have had it. DLQ = eggs laid at the base of cells as they normally would be. Laying workers = more hap-hazard pattern, multiple eggs in cells, eggs stuck to side walls.

Be it DLQ or laying workers the bbes might hopelessly try and raise queen cells on whatever larvae they have. But nothing will come of them.

 

[bees knees]

Thanks melormynydd - will try this today.

Thanks PH for making me feel better about the holiday. Don't think we'll go at this time again though given the number of swarms people have had so early.

Thanks for your comments Midland Beek - as I said, we could not see any eggs but the pattern was probably more in keeping with laying workers. I gave them some fondant over winter because on hefting they felt pretty light. Does anyone else think they may have swarmed? Is it usual to find the occasional grub in a random place (one was in the fondant) or does this indicate disease / starvation?? Would they have had time this season already to swarm and then get to the point of laying workers by a week ago???

BK

 

[bees knees]

Shook the bees down the garden today. Salvaged what comb and stores we could. Was great fun! Most of the bees seemed to be flying and went back to base. Was a good opportunity to have a bit of a sort out / switch around of equipment in the process.

Our other hive is looking good and will have a frame of eggs/brood to spare so will see if they can raise a new queen eventually. Should we still wait 4 days and check for eggs first? Presumably only need to repeat the shaking down the garden procedure if there are new eggs (although I have to admit my egg spotting skills are not great). Is there any risk of new laying workers developing before then?

Any thoughts on the questions on my previous post?? Sorry to be impatient - feel like a child eagerly awaiting your responses!

Many thanks all.

BK

 

[Midland Beek]

I don't know if anyone suggested it, but you could move both hives very close together for a couple of days; and then do the shake 'em out at the end of the garden procedure again, only this time removing the 'bad' hive. All the bees will then hopefully get in the 'good' hive; or their could be mass carnage!

If you want to give the 'bad' colony a frame of eggs/young larvae to try its chances at rearing a queen then I do not see the point of delaying any longer and/or doing another shake out. I would be inclined to just give them the frame and then check for queen cells.

 

[Hivemaker.]

All this shaking out of laying workers is a load of tosh,they have wings and can still fly,and many colonys even Q+ have a few laying workers. If they are strong then add brood.

 

[bees knees]

Thanks for all your comments. Its great to hear different points of view. I'm realising more and more how un black and white this beekeping lark is!

Added a frame of good brood to our failing colony today - fingers crossed they will raise a queen although I realise that the chances of this being successful in the long run are quite slim. Lots of activity today though so I think they are strong enough to try and save. When would folks advise checking them again?

Out of interest, how many people have actually tried saving a colony with laying workers (or a DLQ) like this before? Was it successful? How about long-term?

BK

 

[mandabow]

Thanks for all your comments. Its great to hear different points of view. I'm realising more and more how un black and white this beekeping lark is!

Added a frame of good brood to our failing colony today - fingers crossed they will raise a queen although I realise that the chances of this being successful in the long run are quite slim. Lots of activity today though so I think they are strong enough to try and save. When would folks advise checking them again?

Out of interest, how many people have actually tried saving a colony with laying workers (or a DLQ) like this before? Was it successful? How about long-term?

BK

i've seen some saved in the past. once new queen is laying and laying workers have died off all is fine, until then theres a fair amount of drone about, not a massive problem as long as theres enough space for both to lay and enough food to rear them. workers help a bit once the queen is laying by removing some of the drone eggs/grubs.

I hope the frame of brood you gave them was uncapped and contained eggs, rather than capped brood, so that they can get young grubs to turn into queenies.. to get the best queen you may need to destroy the capped queen cells after a few days (these will be too old to make good queens) however if no other cells are being made a scrub queen is better than none.

 

[melormynydd]

All this shaking out of laying workers is a load of tosh,they have wings and can still fly,and many colonys even Q+ have a few laying workers. If they are strong then add brood.

hi Hivemaker,
i have never heard of laying workers in q+ colonys, very interesting.
how have u come to this conclusion? any reading material about this?

and i have used this method to treat drone laying queens and workers a few times and its worked up to now. my bees read the same books as me probably!

 

[oliver90owner]

Trying to raise emergency queens from a small colony is a severe waste of effort.

Add open brood by all means - it will keep them going until a queen becomes available. Meanwhile, use your other colony to raise supercedure cells for a decent queen, if you are not wanting to buy in a laying queen.

RAB

 

[Tom Bick]

hi Hivemaker,
i have never heard of laying workers in q+ colonys, very interesting.
how have u come to this conclusion? any reading material about this?

Not able to speak for Hivemaker but I went to a talk on this subject a while back and yes in a healthy hive you get a number of laying workers at any time in the hive.

The interesting bit is that it seems that if the queen mates with a low number of drones it results in a higher amount of laying workers within a healthy hive, and the more drones the queen mates with the hive has less laying workers.

The research had found that an egg laid by a laying worker her full sisters the ones with the same father / drone would ignore the egg but a half sister of the laying worker with a different father / drone would eat the egg and subsequently ignore eggs laid by her full sisters.

The talk was hard work at times but fascinating at the same time.

 

[melormynydd]

thanks for that Tom Bick, very interesting. and a talk on that dose sounds very much like hard work!

 

[Polyanwood]

So what is the optimal number of matings? If we are doing instrumental inseminantion what should we be aiming for?

 

[Pookiesbees]

Poly Hive, forgive my lack of knowledge but am still learning! You wrote "she was going to start drone laying regardless"; why does this happen to a previously happy queen? What causes her to stop laying fertilised eggs and can we prevent it in some way? Thanks in advance.

 

[drstitson]

"What causes her to stop laying fertilised eggs and can we prevent it in some way?"

she runs out of sperm

no