Double brood and seeking advice

psafloyd · May 9, 2011

My colony was placed on double brood, as it was heavily congested a few weeks ago, and though no signs of swarming (2010 queen), I was away for a long weekend, so stuck another brood box on.

This was drawn out and laid up by the next week and things were good. Growth, stores, no signs of swarming, so I thought I would wait to split until they wanted to move on.

I placed a second super on as the first was almost filled with stores, but also brood due to my QEs being the defective Thorne's variety. Anyway, a QE went on last week.

However, the second super added at the sMe time is hardly drawn out and the brood boxes are full of stores, some larvae, but no eggs. There are four queen cell (play cups) on one frame, but no eggs or larvae in them.

Temperament is very good, there is plenty of pollen going in, sothey appear queen right, but

A) I cannot find the queen in the last two inspections

B) there are no eggs apparent, only larvae

C) stores are plentiful and I have bruised considerable amounts of capped and uncapped honey to encourage them to move it into the waiting supers, one and a half of which are drawn out ready to go

So, what I'd like advice in, is whether I should continue as I am and hope I see HM next time, split into two (at least two, maybe three as double brood?) making allowance for no apparent queen, or go back and manipulate until I see her?

I thought I saw her a few times as there were some larger bees in there, but they couldn't be virgin queens, as there wasn't time from last week for them to develop. And no, they weren't drones.

There were some bees congregating inside the floor, but not many and their industry did seem to have Ben diminished, so perhaps she's been slimmed for a swarm, but there aren't enough indicators to suggest they store off tout de suite.

So, what might I look for? What have I missed so far? any help gratefully received.

Midland Beek · May 9, 2011

Hmm ... I bet there are plenty of colonies in the South East that have by now already swarmed. So, assuming you do not unknowingly have a swarmed stock on your hands, I think you have been doing all the right things.

Seeing the queen is always good. Brood at all stages, including eggs, also indicates that all is well. And, of course, absence of queen cells helps confirm the colony is queenright.

Had they have swarmed you, of course, do not now have anything laying eggs, so any brood is invariably older. The point being, if there is not a single egg in the hive you have maybe lost a swarm. And if nothing starts laying soon all the brood will get capped and eventually emerge as time goes by.

If you have lost a swarm ... hope that there is now a new queen in your hive in the process of mating.

simonf · May 9, 2011

I have read in quite a few post queens are going of laying, it could be a case of that, give it a week, you might have queen cells or new eggs by then, the bees will sort it out, IMHO.

Saradan · May 9, 2011

Hi

Not much help to you, I know, but this is where having a second healthy colony can be of assistance.

A frame of brood with eggs from the second could be introduced into the colony in question.

If it is queenless the colony usually attempt to produce emergency QCs

Regards

Tony

psafloyd · May 9, 2011

Midland Beek said:
Hmm ... I bet there are plenty of colonies in the South East that have by now already swarmed. So, assuming you do not unknowingly have a swarmed stock on your hands, I think you have been doing all the right things.

Seeing the queen is always good. Brood at all stages, including eggs, also indicates that all is well. And, of course, absence of queen cells helps confirm the colony is queenright.

Had they have swarmed you, of course, do not now have anything laying eggs, so any brood is invariably older. The point being, if there is not a single egg in the hive you have maybe lost a swarm. And if nothing starts laying soon all the brood will get capped and eventually emerge as time goes by.

If you have lost a swarm ... hope that there is now a new queen in your hive in the process of mating.

I have now been through this hive yet again and can confirm my queen has disappeared, despite there being no laid up Q cells before her disappearance. There are a lot of bees still here, but I think I have discovered the problem. Last week, the brood frames were being filled rapidly, despite one fullish super and an undrawn super.
This is a week or so after the replacement QE going on, but today the frames in both BBs are rammed, and after watching the bees for five or so minutes, it is apparent the bees cannot get through the bloody QE. I can't tell you how angry I was.
Anyway, i hope i hsve a queen to be mated, but could it be the queen got fed up with her nursery being filled with honey and buggered off, with an emergency queen cell being created from an existing cell that might have fallen between my weekly inspections?
There are a lot of drone cells now, and these have risen into the main brood rather than frame edges. Could I have a drone laying worker or queen, even? Can't find anything resembling a queen, and I have been through three times in just over a week and it has all gone wrong in that time. Some larvae, but large and quite a lot onnthe bottom of one frame where bone might expect drones, but some of these cells look half finished or half torn down.
Temperament hasbgone from excellent last week to ok on Sunday, to really bloody not ok today. I was in for a while, but once I got down to the bottom of the second brood box, they went mental and in had to beat a retreat. Two stings in right middle finger for my efforts.
My only access to a test frame would be if the swarm I got yesterday is queenright, she's mated and I find no evidence of illness in the brood. But that means waiting some time or taking a risk with disease.
As ever, any advice greatly received.

psafloyd · May 10, 2011

psafloyd said:
I have now been through this hive yet again and can confirm my queen has disappeared, despite there being no laid up Q cells before her disappearance. There are a lot of bees still here, but I think I have discovered the problem. Last week, the brood frames were being filled rapidly, despite one fullish super and an undrawn super.
This is a week or so after the replacement QE going on, but today the frames in both BBs are rammed, and after watching the bees for five or so minutes, it is apparent the bees cannot get through the bloody QE. I can't tell you how angry I was.
Anyway, i hope i hsve a queen to be mated, but could it be the queen got fed up with her nursery being filled with honey and buggered off, with an emergency queen cell being created from an existing cell that might have fallen between my weekly inspections?
There are a lot of drone cells now, and these have risen into the main brood rather than frame edges. Could I have a drone laying worker or queen, even? Can't find anything resembling a queen, and I have been through three times in just over a week and it has all gone wrong in that time. Some larvae, but large and quite a lot onnthe bottom of one frame where bone might expect drones, but some of these cells look half finished or half torn down.
Temperament hasbgone from excellent last week to ok on Sunday, to really bloody not ok today. I was in for a while, but once I got down to the bottom of the second brood box, they went mental and in had to beat a retreat. Two stings in right middle finger for my efforts.
My only access to a test frame would be if the swarm I got yesterday is queenright, she's mated and I find no evidence of illness in the brood. But that means waiting some time or taking a risk with disease.
As ever, any advice greatly received.

Just spoken to Thornes and they are going to replace my QEs with metal ones TODAY. No arguments, so there may be a problem with this replacement batch, after all.

I haven't had the definitive answer, yet, but if you are concerned, you should contact them.