Dn4 vs DN5's? Is there a difference?

[SonorousSuze]

Hi, not sure if this is the righ place for this, apologies if it isn't.

I ordered a lot of kit (under the guidance from a mentor) from a well known bee keeping supplier during their winter sale. My mentor recommended DN5 frames.

Apart from smashed boxes and no instructions etc, I've now realised that I've been sent DN4 frames not DN5's as ordered.

I have phoned them, and their director G*** told me there was negligible if any difference (she obviously didn't mention cost). She did not offer to replace them with the goods that had been ordered.

Is there a difference? I feel fobbed off by her answer, but have I been?

Thanks

 

[Haughton Honey]

Before converting to Commercial size hives I used to run double brood Nationals, originally with DN4 frames until I switched to DN5.

They are both good frames and both work perfectly well.

My only observation might be that the DN5 frames (wider top bar) attract a smaller amount of brace comb between them.

Hi, not sure if this is the righ place for this, apologies if it isn't.

I ordered a lot of kit (under the guidance from a mentor) from a well known bee keeping supplier during their winter sale. My mentor recommended DN5 frames.

Apart from smashed boxes and no instructions etc, I've now realised that I've been sent DN4 frames not DN5's as ordered.

I have phoned them, and their director G*** told me there was negligible if any difference (she obviously didn't mention cost). She did not offer to replace them with the goods that had been ordered.

Is there a difference? I feel fobbed off by her answer, but have I been?

Thanks

 

[ashleybee]

I agree both DN4's and 5's are fine but if they have charged you for DN5's and then send you 4's I'd want the differnce back on the principle that they ARE different.
all the best. AB

 

[Margaret Elisabeth]

I agree both DN4's and 5's are fine but if they have charged you for DN5's and then send you 4's I'd want the differnce back on the principle that they ARE different.
all the best. AB

I like your signature line.

 

[itma]

... I've now realised that I've been sent DN4 frames not DN5's as ordered. ...

Are you sure? - the *only* difference between them is in the width of the top bar.

I like the wider top bar.
Others prefer the cheaper, narrower bar of the 4's. But only because it is cheaper.
Per frame its only pennies more for the better option.

T's are excellent for customer service, but this long after the event to only now be checking... well, they might wonder.


// Added -
All National frame variants are just different combinations of some standard parts.
And T's make and package them as parts for sale stock.
So an order for this frame means a pack of top bars, a pack of bottom bars and a couple of packs of side bars.
None of which are unique to that frame type!

If they have screwed up, at worst, you'd be exchanging just the top bars.

 

[Chrisfnvs]

As ITMA says the only difference is the top bars of the 5`s are a bit wider than the 4`s, i would check them to make sure what you have actually got, when i buy mine in 50`s the top bars are not wrapped or labeled just in a bundle, as are the bottom bars, its the side bars that are wrapped in cellophane and labeled as SN4 or DN4 depending on what you wanted ie Shallow or Deep frames, so maybe thats the problem.

 

[SonorousSuze]

Are you sure? - the *only* difference between them is in the width of the top bar.

I like the wider top bar.
Others prefer the cheaper, narrower bar of the 4's. But only because it is cheaper.
Per frame its only pennies more for the better option.

T's are excellent for customer service, but this long after the event to only now be checking... well, they might wonder.


// Added -
All National frame variants are just different combinations of some standard parts.
And T's make and package them as parts for sale stock.
So an order for this frame means a pack of top bars, a pack of bottom bars and a couple of packs of side bars.
None of which are unique to that frame type!

If they have screwed up, at worst, you'd be exchanging just the top bars.

Hi, they arrived only a week ago. I received several emails telling me the delivery would take some time.

And yes, you're correct, side bars labelled as 4's. i have two bundles of top bars the look tobe the same width.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Well , this is folk law as it came from my Grandfather in the 1960's so i will probably be shot down in flames....

He ran hives in both 14x12s and brood and a half format , his belief was that DN4 should be used in the brood box of brood and a half because if DN5 were used then they restrict the queen crossing from Brood to the half brood

He told me that the original intention of the DN5 was an Australian method to restrict the queen to the brood box without QE and not as we are now told to reduce brace comb

ok I said it was foik law, but i have seen a reference somewhere to the same view in a book i read for BBKA module...cant remember the title though.. just in case i am flamed ..dial 999

 

[itma]

Hi, they arrived only a week ago. I received several emails telling me the delivery would take some time.

And yes, you're correct, side bars labelled as 4's. i have two bundles of top bars the look tobe the same width.

4 or 5 its the same sidebar.

the 5's wider tob bar is just over an inch wide, while the 4's top bar is just under an inch wide.

 

[Swarm]

As ITMA says the only difference is the top bars of the 5`s are a bit wider than the 4`s, i would check them to make sure what you have actually got, when i buy mine in 50`s the top bars are not wrapped or labeled just in a bundle, as are the bottom bars, its the side bars that are wrapped in cellophane and labeled as SN4 or DN4 depending on what you wanted ie Shallow or Deep frames, so maybe thats the problem.

Spot on.
Check the top bar width with that of the lug, it will be wider than the lug. The side bars are 'job lot' 4 or 5 makes no diff. My only criticism is the bottom bars which are not stepped to match the width of the bottom of the side bar.

 

[itma]

He told me that the original intention of the DN5 was an Australian method to restrict the queen to the brood box without QE and not as we are now told to reduce brace comb

Flame you?
Never, but I will call on the Aussies or whoever.

On standard hoffman sides the wide bars leave a nice 8mm gap between -- as opposed to the 12mm gap between the narrower bars.
That isn't small enough to act as a QX.
But 8mm is exactly in-line with the beespace found between brood combs.
And 12mm isn't.

On 14x12 the wide bar is standard, presumably for strength rather than in place of a qx!

 

[itma]

... My only criticism is the bottom bars which are not stepped to match the width of the bottom of the side bar.

Actually, its T's sidebars that are waisted too deeply, so there is another beespace-plus gap there.

The 'stepped' bottom bars are as used on Manley frames and give the same overall width as the wide top bar ... and yes that does mean that Manley bottoms don't smoothly blend into T's sidebars.
This is something Bob Smith bangs on about, given half a chance.
Some manufacturers DO make 'proper' sidebars. But T's various Sales offer a much cheaper product. Its just a shame that they do too much material removal - it would actually be easier for them to make the better product...
However, its very rare for me to see brace comb in the 'wasted' area. So I don't think that dimension matters overmuch.
Whereas brace comb is quite common on the top bars, the narrower ones especially...

 

[MuswellMetro]

Spot on.
Check the top bar width with that of the lug, it will be wider than the lug. The side bars are 'job lot' 4 or 5 makes no diff. My only criticism is the bottom bars which are not stepped to match the width of the bottom of the side bar.

hmmmm , yes all my SN5 have sides in bundled labled SN4 , would be the same with DN5/DN4

measure the width of the topbar...28mm dfor DN5

 

[Swarm]

Actually, its T's sidebars that are waisted too deeply, so there is another beespace-plus gap there.

The 'stepped' bottom bars are as used on Manley frames and give the same overall width as the wide top bar ... and yes that does mean that Manley bottoms don't smoothly blend into T's sidebars.
This is something Bob Smith bangs on about, given half a chance.
Some manufacturers DO make 'proper' sidebars. But T's various Sales offer a much cheaper product. Its just a shame that they do too much material removal - it would actually be easier for them to make the better product...
However, its very rare for me to see brace comb in the 'wasted' area. So I don't think that dimension matters overmuch.
Whereas brace comb is quite common on the top bars, the narrower ones especially...

I know what you mean about the 'waisted' area of the side bar but T's bottom bars are simple strips of wood, like toffee apple sticks. A superior bottom bar, that is stepped at each end (the main bar is wider) making it flush with the side bar instead of two bars being narrower than the frames (as they are with those from T's) is available from another supplier. They are not Manleys, they are supplied with DN5's

I find the bees enjoy drawing a bit of a mess along both the narrow top bars and along the bottom bars, but more so the bottom.

 

[itma]

... A superior bottom bar, that is stepped at each end (the main bar is wider) making it flush with the side bar instead of two bars being narrower than the frames (as they are with those from T's) is available from another supplier. They are not Manleys, they are supplied with DN5's

Who, (go on give us a clue) ordinarily supplies the Manley-type bottom bar with their DN5s? Or 14x12s?
And does the sidebar bottom width match with the width of their sidebar? (As noted above, T's sidebar becomes narrower than the wide Manley bottoms.)
No question, that would be the best solution, if the cost penalty isn't excessive.

 

[beehive1234]

I bought all SN4 frames in the T****** sale a couple of years ago. Now I wish I had bought Manley frames. So I am trying to think of a way to up grade the top bars by buying sides and bottom bars. What is your advise please? I am confused about the 'one piece' bottom bars, ( it doesn't take a lot to confuse me). Can I buy these with Manley sidebars? Surely this would make a very sturdy box like frame. Do you think this one peice bottom bar a good idea? Also does one have to buy brood comb foundation to go with Manley frames?

 

[itma]

I bought all SN4 frames in the T****** sale a couple of years ago. Now I wish I had bought Manley frames. So I am trying to think of a way to up grade the top bars by buying sides and bottom bars. What is your advise please?

There are no parts in common between SN4 and Manley. (SN5 shares the same wider top bar.)
Sorry.

I am confused about the 'one piece' bottom bars, ( it doesn't take a lot to confuse me). Can I buy these with Manley sidebars? Surely this would make a very sturdy box like frame. Do you think this one peice bottom bar a good idea? Also does one have to buy brood comb foundation to go with Manley frames?

One-piece bottom bars are intended for the folks who wire their own foundation - often because they make their own foundation.
National Manleys take standard National shallow foundation.
But Manleys are often chosen by those wanting to get some cut comb - for which you would use thin and UNwired foundation.
They are pretty sturdy as standard!


Bit puzzled by the reference to "brood comb foundation".
Manleys are shallows, optimised for use as crop supers.
I'm guessing you mean "worker" rather than "drone" cell-size pattern foundation.
Its simplest to stick to worker everywhere -- but that is a whole different can of worms!

 

[SonorousSuze]

Thanks everyone for their replies.

I ordered bs Manley super frames, and dn5 brood frames.

The top bars supplied are both the same at 26.5mm wide and 17mm deep.

Simplest answer is take them along next time I see my man and ask him to show me how both sets fit together. Seems like same top bar, but with different side and bottom bars.

Brace comb etc, I'll deal with as I have to.

 

[beehive1234]

Thank you itma, I do have sn5, just checked the receipts. So I hope I can buy some Manley side bars and bottom bars?

I was told that using Manley frames would mean extra honey per inch of super frame. Is this true? Or is it just to make uncapping easier?

A teacher at my CBKA said to use brood foundation to achieve more honey and less wax. Although, I think I will stick with my worker foundation, as you suggest.

 

[Swarm]

Who, (go on give us a clue) ordinarily supplies the Manley-type bottom bar with their DN5s? Or 14x12s?
And does the sidebar bottom width match with the width of their sidebar? (As noted above, T's sidebar becomes narrower than the wide Manley bottoms.)
No question, that would be the best solution, if the cost penalty isn't excessive.

National Bee Supplies. 14x12 or DN5/SN5 bottom bars have a step at each end, supplied as standard. When they are fitted into the side bars, the bottom bars are the same width as the narrow part of the side bar. The step helps to square the frame and makes the whole thing more sturdy, which may be a consideration for 14x12's.
Are T's supplying their 14x12's with skinny bottom bars?